223764 Bullies, 3629 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 11 to 20 of 57
Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    501

    Posted On:
    3/31/2007 7:33pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah, do I train for the belt, or do I get the belt because I train?

    While we'd all like to see the latter in martial arts, sadly t's just not the case.
  2. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    3/31/2007 7:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well today I judged/reffed a TKD tourney.

    There were MULTIPLE under 12 BB's there.

    However, what stuck in my mind was a kid (13 years old, 3rd degree BB) that was interested in taking BJJ. I had been talking to his parents (both of whom are BB's ) and they said that he isnt allowed to test for his fourth degree until he was 18. I said, "Why not?" nobody had any problem making him a third degree when he was 13.

    So, he is getting bored because he sees no advancement in the art for 5 more years. I can understand that. So I told his parents to have him drop by the BJJ/Judo school and try it out.

    I did tell them that it could take 15 years to get a BB, well that made them back off a bit. The dad asked me why it took so long. I told him to come by and watch , better yet, grapple with the BB BJJ Instructor there, and he would see. I also pointed out the 5' 10" 350 pound TKD BB whose gut hid his belt knot, and told him that you wont see a BB like that in BJJ.
  3. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    W. Yorks, UK
    Posts
    5,018

    Posted On:
    3/31/2007 8:00pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Judo did it first, judo did it right.

    You don't like the effect rankings have on your TKD etc? Then do it fucking right, like BJJ does, like judo does. It's not the belts that are the problem, it's the fuckers handing them out every week so they can buy a new BMW.
  4. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    3/31/2007 8:20pm

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    Judo did it first, judo did it right.

    You don't like the effect rankings have on your TKD etc? Then do it fucking right, like BJJ does, like judo does. It's not the belts that are the problem, it's the fuckers handing them out every week so they can buy a new BMW.
    Unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle.

    Without starting my own style of TKD, I see no way of reversing it.
  5. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    501

    Posted On:
    3/31/2007 8:30pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    Judo did it first, judo did it right.

    You don't like the effect rankings have on your TKD etc? Then do it fucking right, like BJJ does, like judo does. It's not the belts that are the problem, it's the fuckers handing them out every week so they can buy a new BMW.
    I don't think it's as simple as that. Instruction in TKD vs. BJJ (and I think Judo, though I've never done it myself) is fundamentally different. The 'one form for one belt' organization is pretty standardized, and it'd be...challenging...to adopt a different methodology.

    I think the best one could do is to do away with the formal tests, i.e. remove the standard testing-cycle. If someone had all their move down, but you wanted their sidekicks cleaner and quicker...then you might be in a possition to just say that, and give them the new belt after working on it, it would certianly give some focused motivation.

    I think it's largely the imposed timeframe that's the killer. The temptation to get them over the line so they don't have to wait several more months can be big, especially when you know those extra few months are going to depress the hell out of them.
  6. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    4/01/2007 6:13am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lv1Sierpinski
    I don't think it's as simple as that. Instruction in TKD vs. BJJ (and I think Judo, though I've never done it myself) is fundamentally different. The 'one form for one belt' organization is pretty standardized, and it'd be...challenging...to adopt a different methodology.
    Dont you think that possibly starting an new style, or organization would be the answer?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lv1Sierpinski
    I think the best one could do is to do away with the formal tests, i.e. remove the standard testing-cycle. If someone had all their move down, but you wanted their sidekicks cleaner and quicker...then you might be in a possition to just say that, and give them the new belt after working on it, it would certianly give some focused motivation.

    I think it's largely the imposed timeframe that's the killer. The temptation to get them over the line so they don't have to wait several more months can be big, especially when you know those extra few months are going to depress the hell out of them.

    Something akin to having a formal testing every four to 6 months? Then do like BJJ does, if you arent ready to be a blue belt, but you are a VERY good white belt then you get a stripe. That way there is some advancement but not to the next belt level.

    I thinl that a lot of it can be solved by changing the training environment. Less of the bullshit (saying the pledge of allegiance before every class, saying the tenets after every class, and the student oath, learning ridiculous one step/kumite that nobody uses in sparring anyway) and focus on the real aspect of TKD as a MA.

    Lengthening classes would also help. 1 1/2 hour classes would be great. 20 minutes for real warm up and stretching, then technique time, then sparring (to try out the new techniques) and a cool down period with kata/patterns/forms, whatever you want to call them.

    Then a quick five minute stretch.

    Keep in mind that these times are not set in stone, and the class should be varied from time to time to reduce the predictability/tediousness.

    20 min warm up, make them breath heavy and break a sweat, and stretching.

    15 min teaching a few new techniques or principles.

    30 miunute REAL sparring.

    20 minutes of patterns

    5 minutes for stretching and announcements and **** like that.

    most TKD classes I have taken, and have seen, are 45 minutes, and occasionally an hour.


    I wouldnt allow ANYONE to reach BB before the age of 13.
  7. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    501

    Posted On:
    4/01/2007 6:30am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Morita
    Dont you think that possibly starting an new style, or organization would be the answer?
    As I said, I think the fundamental structure of TKD instruction prevents such a clear cut solution.


    Quote Originally Posted by Morita
    Something akin to having a formal testing every four to 6 months? Then do like BJJ does, if you arent ready to be a blue belt, but you are a VERY good white belt then you get a stripe. That way there is some advancement but not to the next belt level.
    I think the best plan is for there to be NO testing cycle. In wushu there was no cycle for progressing through the forms, you just worked on it until the instructor was satisfied that you'd advanced enough on the current form. That's one key difference I found. Physically, I was just as prepared for the 5th form I learned as I was for the 3rd. There was a lot I was expected to get out of the form I was doing before I moved on. TKD (at least what I've been involved in) was more along the lines of 'do you know it? good then you can move on'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morita
    I thinl that a lot of it can be solved by changing the training environment. Less of the bullshit (saying the pledge of allegiance before every class, saying the tenets after every class, and the student oath, learning ridiculous one step/kumite that nobody uses in sparring anyway) and focus on the real aspect of TKD as a MA.
    I'm interested to know what you mean by 'real aspect'.

    I certainly don't expect to magically cure TKD or anything else, but it is interesting to think about how different rank methodologies can/should be applied. When I did Aikido (having only done TKD), I was shocked that I learned a lot of techniques that weren't required for my first grading, I'd never come across that before.

    As I said before, I think formal testings need to go out the window. This gives the flexibility to cater for the individual. If I rock up to a TKD school now, while I'd need to learn the forms, in terms of technique and fitness, I'm sure I'd be ahead of several of the lower ranking individuals. With a testing cycle, I get trapped, and others get shuffled along before they're ready.
  8. glad2bhere is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    288

    Posted On:
    4/01/2007 9:27am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are not going to change things as long as rank is a matter of image rather than skill or ability. For instance a 13 y/o has no business wearing a Black Belt. He/she is not old enough to comprehend what it means, cannot meet the responsibilities of commitment that it entails and cannot produce the level of mastery that it indicates. The sheer fact that a child loses interst unless he gets regular reinforcement tells me that they are not older enough or mature enough to understand the implcations of what they are doing.

    Further, and putting to one side the moral or philosophical side of the questions, the fact is that a kid simply cannot handle an adult 1:1. If a 13 y/o can beat an adult of the desired rank then I say "great! give him the rank". I don't know any other kind of competition (except the Special Olympics) where everybody gets standing just for participating. These people who are selling rank are lying to their students by saying that the image of a belt is identical to having the skill set. Thoughts?

    As far as solutions: I say set up a five-year self-defense program where kids have grades that they pass just like in grammar school. Each grade they get a certificate and at the end they get a graduation bash with a di[ploma. No belts. Comments?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  9. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    501

    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 4:04am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Firstly, your solution...I don't think it is one. If I replace 'grade' with 'belt' and 'diploma' with 'black belt' then we have an automatic 5-year contract for getting a black belt...called something different sure, but ultimately the same thing.

    Also, I think you're trying to see things in black and white and missing out all the grey in there. What of the scores of adults that cannot handle another adult 1:1? And I've known my share of adults that lose interst without the regular reinforcement. If regular external motivation and reinforcement wasn't needed by so many, exercise tapes and crappy machines that promise everything in no time wouldn't do nearly as well.

    It seems to me with statements like "comprehend what it means" and "responsibilities of commitment that it entails", you're attaching a lot more to a black belt than I am. My black belt, as far as I'm concerned, symbolizes that I learned everything color belts learn, and progressively improved my techniques beyond those color belts. They say color belts are just the basics anyway...a black belt is where the training really begins (not that I agree...but I've heard it said).

    As I've said before, I always took rank to be a matter of knowledge. Now that I'm involved in BJJ, it makes sense to me that is should be a matter of skill, but if you want to include everyone, those expectations must change. To a large extent, TKD has made a play to include everyone...so things changed.
  10. HonkyTonkMan is offline
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar

    Y SO SRIUS?

    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Black Belt City, Mississippi
    Posts
    5,434

    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 5:25am

    supporting member
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    You are not going to change things as long as rank is a matter of image rather than skill or ability.
    Then this discussion is over. ALL people in ANY art want to be a BB. Period. Why? The prestige of saying, "I take *insert art here*" What belt are you? "Black"

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    For instance a 13 y/o has no business wearing a Black Belt. He/she is not old enough to comprehend what it means, cannot meet the responsibilities of commitment that it entails and cannot produce the level of mastery that it indicates.
    What does a BB mean?

    What responsibilities of commitment does it entail?

    Level of mastery? I have seen, and taught kids that are 10 years old, and are FANATSTIC at TKD. They know ALL of their forms, and one steps, can perform them flawlessly, spar well against people of their own age group, and a few years above (size being the ONLY issue).

    13 is the age I say that a child should be able to reach BB. They are starting to grow and mature.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    The sheer fact that a child loses interst unless he gets regular reinforcement tells me that they are not older enough or mature enough to understand the implcations of what they are doing.
    Adults lose interest if there isnt any regular reinforcement. Of course this isnt the case for all adults OR children, but is the norm.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Further, and putting to one side the moral or philosophical side of the questions, the fact is that a kid simply cannot handle an adult 1:1. If a 13 y/o can beat an adult of the desired rank then I say "great! give him the rank".
    I cant beat some adults of lower belt rank. Should I then have my BB stripped from me? There are MANY higher ranked BB's that couldnt take me one on one. (point sparing OR in a REAL fight)

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    These people who are selling rank are lying to their students by saying that the image of a belt is identical to having the skill set. Thoughts?
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    As far as solutions: I say set up a five-year self-defense program where kids have grades that they pass just like in grammar school. Each grade they get a certificate and at the end they get a graduation bash with a di[ploma. No belts. Comments?

    How is a certificate any different than a belt?

Page 2 of 6 FirstFirst 12 3456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.