228070 Bullies, 4732 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 10
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 1:34am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Bridging Chasm Between Padwork & Sparring

    Let's discuss training methodology.

    I feel that there's a very big gap between doing padwork and applying those same combinations you practice in padwork to sparring.

    A person can work the pads beautifully, but is unable to do the same during sparring. Reasons include:

    1) Opponents move and evade during sparring
    2) Opponents hit back and break your combinations

    So a fighter training using traditional methods may become good after 2-3 years. Can the training process and methodology be improved so that this time can be significantly cut short? I believe it can and I want ideas.

    Just as SBG has the theory that training should offer increasing resistance, I wondered how this can be applied to standup.

    Currently, this is the best progression that is practised in gyms I've visited.

    1) New combination is taught. You practice it in the air by shadowboxing, repeating it over and over for 2-3 minutes till it's burned into you.

    2) Partner up and do said combination on the pads. Repeat for 2 - 3 minutes. Pad holder is often stationary.

    3) Partner up and do "man drills." This is where you do the moves lightly on your partner's body. Partner if often stationary.

    4) Try to apply it in full-out sparring.

    This is my idea on how the gaps could be further filled, so that progress can be made quicker. The end result is being able to pull off said combo a high percentage of times in real sparring or competition.

    1) New combination is taught. You practice it in the air by shadowboxing, repeating it over and over for 2-3 minutes till it's burned into you.

    2) Partner up and do said combination on the pads. Repeat for 2 - 3 minutes. Pad holder is stationary.

    3) Repeat drill on pad, but this time, pad holder moves around. He moves in circles, pivots, moves back, etc. Perhaps structure the movements so each kind of movement (move in circles, pivot, move back, sidestep, move forward, etc.) is practiced an equal number of times.

    4) Partner up and do "man drills." This is where you do the moves lightly on your partner's body. Partner is stationary.

    5) Repeat "man drills." This time your partner moves around.

    6) Repeat "man drills." This time your partner moves around and blocks.

    7) Repeat "man drills." This time your partner moves around, blocks and is able to attack/counterattack, while you focus on throwing the same combo and landing over and over again. In doing this, you deal with real-fight difficulties you will face in throwing said combo during sparring.

    8) Apply combo along with other combos learnt, in full-out sparring.

    Thoughts and suggestions welcome.
  2. Nemesai is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    259

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 3:55am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't see anything wrong with working on it outside of sparring, but to be honest for the first few years I trained, on my own sparring with my brother, with no outside influence, I sucked at the mitts for alooong time when I finally hooked up with a trainer.


    I've always had great combination ability though, better than a lot of the more learned fighters at my gym. It's kind of funny though, at competitions when my nerves are going a little, I still suck pretty bad at the mitts, and my opponents usually watch me working and have a little inside laugh. Which I hope they enjoy, cuz I will make them eat it, lol.

    For me, the hardest thing about combination punching being in position to do so, by way of good footwork. As long as your hands are up in in good position you will have fairly fast hands naturally. The closer your feet are while maintaining good balance the better, as with close feet and small quick steps you are always in good body position to move quickly to the proper range.

    For example. In a basic 1-2 combination. Some people will try to reach way to far, taking way too large of a step forward with your front foot. What happens then is your rear foot is turned outward too much, almost pointing straignt off your rear shoulder. From this position, you have taken all the range out of your rear hand. You cant rotate your hips either with any effect. And you're forced to reposition with a slight hop as the chance is lost.

    Like Bruce Lee said, "Your application of an effective technique depends on your footwork. Speed of your footwork leads the way for fast kicks and punches."


    Bruce was one of the greatest minds in martial arts. I'm not a fanboy of kung-fu movies and coreographed scenes, nor do I much take into account his actual fighting ability as is oftened questioned. Of what I've read of his, he had an ability to break down something that is performed in a split second, in a way that you may practice it and understand the purpose. Invaluable. I will always try to apply his thoughts to boxing.


    Sorry I can't just answer a freakin post like a normal person, I have to spam.
  3. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 4:23am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesai
    I've always had great combination ability though, better than a lot of the more learned fighters at my gym. It's kind of funny though, at competitions when my nerves are going a little, I still suck pretty bad at the mitts, and my opponents usually watch me working and have a little inside laugh. Which I hope they enjoy, cuz I will make them eat it, lol.
    In a way, this proves that traditional pad work does not directly translate to sparring ability. I'm told that my padwork is very good, but it doesn't translate to sparring for me, especially where hands are concerned.

    For me, the hardest thing about combination punching being in position to do so, by way of good footwork. As long as your hands are up in in good position you will have fairly fast hands naturally. The closer your feet are while maintaining good balance the better, as with close feet and small quick steps you are always in good body position to move quickly to the proper range.
    You bring up a very good point. The scenario in muay thai is like this: the padholder (trainer) does move around, but he stands still when he "flashes" the pads and you are doing your combos. In a real fight, the opponent moves even in the midst of the combo. I find that padwork done in the traditional way improves your reflexes but not on getting the combo "into" the opponent.

    I think what you said is key, that you need to make little adjustments in your position via footwork, even while throwing your combinations.

    For e.g. if we look at a simple combo like a jab-cross-hook-uppercut. In padwork, you'd step in to throw the initial jab, then carry on with the cross-hook-uppercut without further movement.

    As you said, I think it'll be better if the padholder moved even while the combo was mid-way, so that you have to do jab-cross <little step> hook-uppercut.

    Do you take a little step after each punch, or take little steps after a 2 punches etc.? What have you found works best for you?

    For example. In a basic 1-2 combination. Some people will try to reach way to far, taking way too large of a step forward with your front foot. What happens then is your rear foot is turned outward too much, almost pointing straignt off your rear shoulder. From this position, you have taken all the range out of your rear hand. You cant rotate your hips either with any effect. And you're forced to reposition with a slight hop as the chance is lost.
    It's difficult not to take a big step in kickboxing, because you first need to get past the kicking range to get within punching range, and it's quite a distance to cover. May be different for boxing.

    Like Bruce Lee said, "Your application of an effective technique depends on your footwork. Speed of your footwork leads the way for fast kicks and punches."
    I agree totally.

    Sorry I can't just answer a freakin post like a normal person, I have to spam.
    As long as it adds value to the thread, it's all good.
  4. PPlate is offline

    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    1,083

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 4:27am


     Style: Muay Thai, Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Actually what got me to think about this was a drill I did in my MT class some weeks back. Basically we were asked to partner up, and the "padholder" held his palm facing you.

    He was then asked to just continually move backwards without waiting for the hitter. The hitter's job is to chase after the padholder and jab-cross into his palm.

    I thought the drill was awesome as it very closely resembles what happens during sparring.
  5. Nemesai is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    259

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 4:44am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PPlate
    Do you take a little step after each punch, or take little steps after a 2 punches etc.? What have you found works best for you?



    It's difficult not to take a big step in kickboxing, because you first need to get past the kicking range to get within punching range, and it's quite a distance to cover. May be different for boxing.



    If I'm still in position, I may keep my feet in place and continue to throw. This really only happens for me when someone is moving away from me and I finally get in close enough to throw a quick combination. If on the other hand, I am being pressured by a stronger fighter, forcing me to keep the distance. I will often move after each shot to a different angle either increasing distance or rotating around them to continue a constant flow of punches, not necessarily a quick combination.

    Honestly, kick boxing scares me, lol. After every moment I train, I realized the countless other ways I still have to improve in boxing. All you MMA guys have a much bigger plate to fill.

    There are some parts of Bruce's methods I don't really get to employ, one technique which may be perfect for fighters needing to close the gap quickly, and be ready to apply their own kick is a piece of footwork he calls, "Quick Advance."

    Here is actually some of the book, the link takes a second to load, scroll down to quick advance. http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/8669/footwork.htm Ill try to find a diagram.

    No luck. It's important to practice footwork by itself in repetition to increase the speed and fluidity, otherwise it will take years before its natrual. I hope that text explains it enough to practice.
  6. octaviousbp is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    216

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 4:53am


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No mention of active pad-holding. Could be the missing link you are looking for. Pad work with dynamic feedback from the holder.
  7. Hands is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    322

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 6:48am


     Style: Mongolian

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PPlate
    Actually what got me to think about this was a drill I did in my MT class some weeks back. Basically we were asked to partner up, and the "padholder" held his palm facing you.

    He was then asked to just continually move backwards without waiting for the hitter. The hitter's job is to chase after the padholder and jab-cross into his palm.

    I thought the drill was awesome as it very closely resembles what happens during sparring.
    When holding pads I like to go towards the person too. When doing padwork we always move in multiple directions, not just chasing the pad holder backwards. Try moving forward when you're holding pads, put that pad right in their face.
  8. WhiteShark is offline
    WhiteShark's Avatar

    1% Shark is better than you.

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Atlanta GA
    Posts
    9,179

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 6:50am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ/Shidokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by octaviousbp
    No mention of active pad-holding. Could be the missing link you are looking for. Pad work with dynamic feedback from the holder.
    Yeah real quality pad holding is an art. I've been "beat up" by a good pad holder as much as a good sparring partner.

    I'm talking about focus mits, belly pad and shinguard. The kind of pad holding where not blocking lkicks gets you kicked and you get slapped with focus mits when you drop your hands.
  9. Nemesai is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Posts
    259

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 8:59am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteShark

    you get slapped with focus mits when you drop your hands.

    Lol. I did always find a strange pleasure in getting bopped up side the head while on the mitts.
  10. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,585

    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 10:48am

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When we do mitt or thai pad drills, the pad holder is also feeding strikes, kicks and shots (or they will signal to sprawl). Also, the pad holder is not constantly exposing the same combination. I found the move towards this type of mitt work to be much more helpful.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.