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  1. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 2:46am


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    How to make a style guide

    Quote Originally Posted by doninha
    I think this classification idea is great. I agree that it should be attached to a few modifiers, however. Here is one idea on how I would rank things:


    Capoeira primarily a demonstration style
    The following ratings are my opinion about the relevence concerning overlap into other classifications.

    Scale of relevence from 1 to 10
    Sportfighting:3
    (Intended for competitive athletic events.)

    Self Defense:3
    (Intended for modern-day "real world" fighting, civilian or military)

    Historical:6
    (Traditions from non-modern-day settings, which would probably fall under one of the other four categories in their native setting.)

    Demonstration:10
    (Intended for aesthetic display)

    Health and Fitness:8
    (Intended for mental/physical conditioning and relaxation)

    That's my take on a good system. Along the lines of the styles analysis already present for Ninjitsu and Muay Thai.

    Doninha

    Yes, this IS how I would do it. Then I would make the school reviews explain why their systems rate differently then our general "style ratings." For example, a kickboxing gym with "aliveness 1" on thier school review while kickboxing had a 9 for sport fighting, would be (hopefully) forced to note that "yeah, we just do cardio kickboxing, there's not a single ring or mouthpiece in the whole gym." Likewise a "20 Flying Buddah's Kung Fu" would hopefully realize they need explain why they are claiming to have 10 aliveness when no sport fighting listed as something they train in at that school.

    IMHO that catagorization would be helpful for people trying to "choose a style" before looking into schools, or who want to figure out if the martial art school they encountered is exceptional in some way compared to "other schools of this style." This could be extended into further description to make a "style guide."
  2. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 4:31am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think, in the interest of guiding the public and encouraging positive change in martial arts, rather than list styles, the focus should be on informing the public in two ways.

    First, vocabulary. If I'm just walking into a school and don't have a good idea of what I want, I can guarantee that they'll have it. And even if I say something as specific as "I want to fight", we all know that there are a million ways to dance around that to get the person to start because "beginners don't fight" followed by "we highly value control"...etc. If I can read up to find out what I want, it'll be that much easier to do the leg work and find something great...or good enough, because there is often a limited selection. And if I'm given terms like 'resisting opponents' then I can go watch a class and ask - point blank, instructors and students - "do you ever just try to pull your hand back as they start to throw you"? If bullshido has given me the confidence to believe that it's perfectly reasonable to ask and expect that from what I'm going to do, then as far as I'm concerned that's a win.

    Second, expectations. When I started TKD, I saw and ad, told my parents I wanted to take up a marial art, and bingo, that was it. No research, didn't go around to different schools, I found one that was close, and they were nice and it looked like fun. And granted there wasn't much of an internet by today's standards, but I really don't think people do a whole lot more research than that. If there was a lot of information from people here about training costs, then maybe some will see it and rethink what they're paying, or avoid someplace that's way to expensive. If I read that other arts really make you work (physically work, hard) for higher rank, especially black belt...then I might ask how tough the tests are, and am I interested in a place testing very young black belts. It might not matter, but I'm sure a good many people don't know any better, because you constantly see young black belts in little news paper articles, in demos, etc.

    Absolutely generalize about the styles, but the focus should be on the bolstering the confidence of those consumers out there. Talk about what other organizations do, or what some instructors teach. It's easy to dismiss what someone 'read on the internet' and many will believe what the person in the uniform says.

    We should be happy with what we're getting, and people need to know it's okay to walk away if you want something else.
  3. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 6:02am


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like the "pull your hands back" example. That one is very important, having people realize that they need to go to a school that trains non-compliant, at least some of the time.
  4. Epa is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 9:21am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A taxonomy of martial arts may be a fun mental exercise, but won't really accomplish your goal of educating people interested in martial arts. Like others said, it's too clunky and has too many exceptions to be really meaningful. In the end it just shows the preferences of the person creating the taxonomy more than the reality of the different martial arts, especially if it involves ratings and point systems.

    A general set of criteria that help consumers figure out what they're looking for is probably the most useful thing this site could do. DFMP's set up sounds like one of the best ways to do it. It is simple, to the point, and can help people avoid getting sucked in to scams or fake martial arts instruction. A taxonomy would not help a new student evaluate a new school. It would just encourage people to make snap judgements based on something they read on the internet without knowing what the **** they are talking about.
  5. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2007 9:29am


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'd agree that the Capoeira example is a good one.
  6. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 2:04pm


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are we actually going to follow through on this? I think it would be a great benefit to the MA community. We shouldn't let all this great thought go to waste.
  7. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 3:07pm


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here, I'll even pitch in my two bits worth:

    Uri Shatil's Proposal for the Beginner's Guide to Choosing a Martial Art/Martial Art Wiki

    Essential Items:

    1. Guide to martial arts terms. Ever term deserves an entry in one grand article. What's more is that every term should have be redirected to by any links to it, if it doesn't have its own page entirely. If I'm not making myself clear, and I'm not, let me... make myself clear.

    For those of you who don't spend much time browsing/editing on wikipedia or other wikis, such as the Lost wiki for some of you, links within wiki pages are written like so:
    Code:
    Brazillian jiu jutsu is a [[grappling]] style, that focuses especially on [[ground fighting]].
    Now, anyone who clicks on "Grappling" will be linked to the "grappling" page, and anyone who clicks on "ground fighting" will be linked to the "ground fighting" page. Both of these terms deserve their own article. However, there should be one large article that lists all MA lingo and gives a breif description.

    2. Pages detailing seperate martial arts. While there is a beginner's guide to choosing, every art deserves its own page. Somebody who's looking for a martial art to train in deserves to know as much as they possibly can about the art before they settle. Every art should start out with the most basic information, presented in a form that anyone can understand, avoiding too much MA lingo. The page can go on to talk about more specific parts of the MA, a "criticisms" section, and whatever.

    3. A "Beginner's Guide to Choosing a Martial Art" page. This page should be linked to from the homepage. It should present a simple "What are you looking for?" section. Maybe everything is right here, and you can find the exact art from one page. Or, maybe, you can do a little bit of reading, and then decide that you want to do a grappling art, and it will link you to the "Beginner's Guide to Choosing a Grappling Art" page. Maybe there's some other system that will work better than these two.

    4. A guide to spotting mcdojos. This can be done in several ways. There can be one grand guide that talks about mcdojo tendancies. Every art can have its own description of mcdojos in its own page (the BJJ page would talk about BJJ fakers, the Karate page would talk about Karate wankers, etc.). There could be a combination of the two. We could go about this in one of many ways.

    Reccommended Items:

    1. A page talking about kid's classes. The discussion earlier revolved primarily around kid's classes, and there is definately a lot of bullshit in kid's classes. There should be a clear guide to where to put your kids if you want them doing MA.

    2. Iron fist moderation. If editing is open to anyone, or it's relatively easy to get an account, we don't want people going on the pages of arts they don't like and editting them to make it look foolish or useless.
  8. burningmonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/04/2007 1:32pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Southern Short Fist

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would suggest that 'self discipline' as a reason to study a martial art is a term that is loaded with conontation, and could be seen in several ways.

    I understand the idea of it being used as a cop-out, and in most cases, I would agree. A good example is McDojo's that cater almost exclusively to parent's of children to increase 'discipline, and self esteem.' Another would be for the out of shape desk jockey that is trying to grow a set, yet goes to a club that does nothing but pet weak egos.

    However, a different example that I would give is of a Korean Buddhist/Martial arts temple that I visted where the monks would wake up at five, meditate, train for two hours, have a very basic breakfast, do four hours of walking meditation (hiking), then have lunch, do chores, have another two hour class, another two hours of meditation, dinner, 'relaxation time,' a class, bed. I think that that lifestyle could also be termed as 'self discipline.' As could entering the navy seals.

    Also, these categories leave little room for cross-over. While kick-boxing is not something that I would learn for hte purposes of self defence, surely it has some minimal martial aspects? If only becuase you are punching and kicking? Perhaps it could be suggested that various arts focus on more or less of these aspects?
  9. BFGalbraith is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/05/2007 12:09pm


     Style: Tai Chi,BJJ,knife-dueling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by burningmonk
    Also, these categories leave little room for cross-over. While kick-boxing is not something that I would learn for hte purposes of self defence, surely it has some minimal martial aspects? If only becuase you are punching and kicking? Perhaps it could be suggested that various arts focus on more or less of these aspects?
    I know of a number of kickboxers who have defended themselves against multiple attackers here in the USA. (The idea that one kickboxer can take on X number of average-joe's is practically a stereotype in Thailand from what I have read in various Muay Thai books.) I would suggest that if some striking art is too far removed from kickboxing it is actually NOT good for self defense. (A striking art that does not involve contact sparring is teaching how to strike inanimate objects and other cooperative targets, which is not a useful self defense skill.)

    I agree that just "catagorizing" the martial arts is problematic since things like Kickboxing fit into multiple catagories. That's why I like that capoiera example.




    As far as doing this right now, we don't have to wait for a forum administrator to set it up. We could start a new thread for exactly this purpose, or start repeating that capoeira example here on this thread using other martial arts. Also, anyone who has the ability to set up a wiki could get this project started (as long as it was copyrighted in a way that Bullshido members could re-use the info in the future.)
  10. Uri Shatil is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2007 9:33pm


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We can't keep repeating that example with different martial arts, as there will be too much disagreement. Yes, I'm vouching for my specific art. But it's not just that. I'm sure that there are plenty of grappling arts that some would say are the ultimate self defense and others would say provide less self defense. We'd need a seperate discussion for every art.
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