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  1. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 10:13am

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by weechey
    Perhaps it isn't the arts that need to be classified, and scored, but the schools themselves...the point has been made here several times that any style can be trained with aliveness...its just that some do it much more than others.

    To allow for that variability, maybe individual schools should be evaluated on skill sets that we all agree define the different reasons people do martial arts. For example...
    1. Striking
    2. Grappling
    3. Self Defense
    4. Physical fitness
    5. Acrobatic art
    6.Historical re-creation
    We've already done that.

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83
  2. sochin101 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 10:14am

    Join us... or die
     Style: No gym currently.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by weechey
    Perhaps it isn't the arts that need to be classified, and scored, but the schools themselves...the point has been made here several times that any style can be trained with aliveness...its just that some do it much more than others.

    To allow for that variability, maybe individual schools should be evaluated on skill sets that we all agree define the different reasons people do martial arts. For example...
    1. Striking
    2. Grappling
    3. Self Defense
    4. Physical fitness
    5. Acrobatic art
    6.Historical re-creation
    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=83
    Dojo reviews...
    They're scored by people training there (primarily) so objectivity could be assumed to be questionable, but most of them seem pretty feasible.
  3. weechey is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 10:17am


     Style: TKD BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    whoops! thanks...just goes to show, all my good ideas are already thought of by someone else first :-)
  4. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 12:56pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    • Sportfighting Styles
    • Self Defense Styles
    • Historical Recreation Styles
    • Demonstration Styles
    • Health and Fitness Styles (?)
    I think those five categories are generally pretty accurate. Arts are generally focused on one of those five. (Not to say that one cannot, say, apply sportfighting knowledge to self defense, or become healthy doing a demonstration style.) I'd define them like this:
    • Sportfighting Styles: Intended for competitive athletic events.
    • Self Defense Styles: Intended for modern-day "real world" fighting, civilian or military.
    • Historical Styles: Traditions from non-modern-day settings, which would probably fall under one of the other four categories in their native setting.)
    • Demonstration Styles: Intended for aesthetic display.
    • Health and Fitness Styles: Intended for mental/physical conditioning and relaxation.
    For example, I would place Aikido under "Historical Styles". (I've taken the liberty of removing the term "recreation", since it sounds a bit awkward to my ear.) I'm reminded of someone's response when asked if aikido is "a self-defense art". He said, very insightfully, that it's best considered a self-defense tradition developed for a different place and time.

    Of course, "Aikido" is such a catch-all that it's developed instructors/dojos/styles in many different categories. For example, Shodokan ("Tomiki Aikido") might (depending on how the individual practices it) be considered to have a Sportfighting focus, albeit with "Historical" influences. Similarly, I've heard that Shin Shin Toitsu ("Ki Society") is principally concerned with health and fitness, much as (most modern studies of) Tai Chi.

    Outside my own art, I have less competence. But I'll take a few tries, just to start the discussion:
    • Sportfighting Styles: BJJ, Boxing, Kendo, Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do
    • Self Defense Styles: Krav Maga, military arts (although that's distinct from civilian self-defense)
    • Historical Styles: Aikido, Iaido, (Modern and classical/koryu) jujutsu, some Karate, various koryu (an enormous category, I know)
    • Demonstration Styles: Wushu, Capoeira, some Tae Kwon Do
    • Health and Fitness Styles: Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido (some schools?), Tai Chi
    I'd hasten to add that it's more important what an art is listed as, than not listed as. As I noted above, an art meant for one thing may be sufficiently good at another. I'd also repeat that individuals, instructors, dojos, and sub-styles can have different foci than are usually associated with their art.
    Last edited by PSanderson; 3/28/2007 1:14pm at . Reason: Clarified "Modern" note - I meant to say that I'm including gendai as well as koryu
  5. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 1:27pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two perplexing arts that I'm having trouble categorizing:

    1) Hapkido, Aikido's wacky Korean cousin. I've seen this art presented as everything from civilian self-defense to sport to gymnastics-esque demo. It might, like many of the larger modern budo (aikido, karate, judo, etc.) have incarnations that could be classified as any of the above. But in the spirit of putting it solidly in one place...perhaps historical? If we believe that it's Daito-ryu jujutsu's descendant.

    2) Kyudo: It's very old - very old - and definitely has a history as a primary art of the warrior class. However, it dropped out of relevancy very early (I think I heard 1400 or 1500 given once?), and became a sport competition or gambling showpiece. Its modern-era incarnation is decidedly and deliberately aesthetic, like tea ceremony. So despite being a very "historical" martial art in the literal sense of the word, in the specialized sense I used above, I would probably instead call it "demonstration".
  6. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 1:45pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost

    • Sportfighting Styles
    • Self Defense Styles
    • Historical Recreation Styles
    • Demonstration Styles
    • Health and Fitness Styles (?)
    One problem I would see is where to put the stuff that is more fantasy than historical. There might also be a place for TMA, but there is so much variation that a TMA could fit anywhere in the list.

    In evaluating a martial art with respect to the list, I don't see it as a mutually exclusive choice. Some people do boxing for fitness. BJJ has shown it's effectiveness in sport fighting, but one of the reasons given is that it has kept some of the traditional jiu-jitsu / judo aspects from being watered down.
    Anyone who has the power to make you believe absurdities has the power to make you commit injustices.
    - Voltaire
  7. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 2:02pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    How about changing "Historical" to "Traditional"? That is, arts that have been "handed down" (and modified to various extents/in various ways). The downside of that is that virtually every organized system of fighting has a tradition that it follows to some extent; you'd need to make a judgment call on when an art is no longer properly a continuation of that tradition.
  8. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 2:07pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The word "traditional" is like "gay"; it's been co-opted/attached to an agenda and means something completely different today than it did 50 years ago.

    And there will be some overlap, but the primary purpose (not the participant's purpose) of the style should be the defining factor.
  9. PSanderson is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 2:32pm


     Style: Aikido, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, I think I'd agree. Especially since "TMA" seems to be a catchphrase (and not a terribly friendly one) here on Bullshido already. Historical might be most appropriate.

    As for the "historical vs. fantasy" thing...isn't that just the difference between doing a historical art well and doing it poorly? I'm not sure we need separate categories for that, any more than we need ones for "classy" demonstrations vs. "tacky" ones.
  10. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/28/2007 2:39pm

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     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Instead of the word style how about based?

    Sportfighting Based - Artform is utilized in full contact sporting events. The principles, techniques and methodology has been proven to be a viable in the combat sporting arena.

    Self Defense Based - Artform is utilized in real life self defense situations the sole purpose being to repel an attacker.

    Historical Recreational Based - Artform is a linage based collection of techniques, methodolgy, and principles based down through generations or through a collective effort of national/international bodies. These artforms follow traditions and rituals deemed appropriate to preserve the linage and origin of the artform. Generally these artforms participate in contact fighting ranging from no contact to full contact. The artforms also incorporate performance sequances as training and competition.

    Demonstration Based - Artform is used in mainly performance based demonstrations. These demostrations involve light to no physical contact and are used to highlight individual athletic abilities.

    Health and Fitness Based - Artform is loosly based from a historical artform but modified or delivered to the student as a means to increase physical health and well being. The artform doesn't participate in competetions involvng contact fighting or demonstration based performances.

    Stated artforms are used primarily in this area while the artforms may have applications that fall into other areas the main focus of training comes from this area.
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