Tai Chi as a Fighting Art

**lee** · Posted On: 4/03/2007 2:31pm

meataxe the style l learned was from ng kam cheun same as your but from shanghai which is different than whats done in h.k. or maybe evolved into now. as l said l never really went into its background except for my teachers. l think most now cant fight as they many times dont have any other background except tai chi. my old freind in the freemasons always said remember the theories not the movements as they have to many holes. that was his opinion. l remember some relatives of the wu family l met decades ago they were large men and a couple in there 70s or 80s .

**Cullion** · Posted On: 4/03/2007 3:26pm

I agree with meataxe. Some of the movements in the form seem to be about practicing putting your whole body into a strike in a slow and detailed way. I know that striking and kicking with force has been taught in our style since as far back as 60's Hong Kong because I've seen film of it.

TCC practitioners who don't spar hard have regularly claimed our style looks like 'bad kickboxing', but it's quite a different strategy that centres around the clinch although striking is taught. We also don't spend nearly as much time on kicking (or any time on high kicks) as most kickboxers or full contact karateka do. Please look at the video clips in the site in my profile for more explanation.

The fact is that once you spar hard in a format where somebody is allowed to punch you as hard as they can in the face, it's a pretty natural to want to be able to punch them back sometimes, even if your main goal is to just close the distance to control their arms and throw them.

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 4/03/2007 4:43pm

Reading Mark Chen's book I can see where people would have a problem with Chen TCC.

I took the time to experiment with the few structural drills that were presented in the book and found that they work wonderfully well. Unfortunately I can see where learning to perform combat in this manner would be one helluva long way off. In a way it reminds me of the Chinese Jian which is extraordinary swordwork----- ONCE a person has mastered its biomechanics. Unfortunately, most people simply do not have the patience and persistence to persevere to a level of competence. Even Mark Chen used this example in his book relating that because a sabre (C. "dao") is easier to learn with its large cutting and slashiong motions the Chinese stopped trying to train its soldiery to use the jian despite its better application in combat. It simply was too much of a learning curve to justify using the Jian in order to get to the level of proficiency necessary for the typical foot soldier.

No real point. Just some odd thoughts to toss into the community pot. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**Cullion** · Posted On: 4/03/2007 5:36pm

TCC with sparring and wrestling doesn't have to have a slower learning curve for use in combat sports involving the ranges it addresses than any other style. You won't get on the mat for a few months and be a shining epitome of the strategies and body mechanics epitomised in forms or old TCC manuals, but that's true for boxers and other people, and it's not a reason not to spar or wrestle.

**Cullion** · Posted On: 4/03/2007 5:37pm

Cheng Tin Hung was teaching and defending challenges in Hong Kong after 4 years of training IIRC.

**meataxe** · Posted On: 4/04/2007 3:21pm

Originally Posted by lee

meataxe the style l learned was from ng kam cheun same as your but from shanghai which is different than whats done in h.k. or maybe evolved into now. as l said l never really went into its background except for my teachers. l think most now cant fight as they many times dont have any other background except tai chi. my old freind in the freemasons always said remember the theories not the movements as they have to many holes. that was his opinion. l remember some relatives of the wu family l met decades ago they were large men and a couple in there 70s or 80s .

Lot's of large men in the Wu family (and Ma family in Shanghai). That's the Manchurian blood :)
:5yinyang:

**lee** · Posted On: 4/04/2007 3:28pm

my best student in this area (b.c.) of pak mei was that blood he is 6ft 4 inches and a helluva fighter. l never had to worry about bare knuckle contact on him as the rest were smaller. l was told ng kam cheun was over 300 lbs . l do agree it shouldn't take a long time to learn to use it , some may drag it out to make more money or they aren't fighters to begin with. or they are a typical student who only practice when hes in the club and go twice a week or less. a great waste of time to teach. l shouldn't have said my best student that was incorrect it should have read one of the best out here in this area . my best is in Ontario and hes the most dedicated he runs the c.a.a.c.m.a. . micheal doucet if there were more like him the arts would be in better shape. most others l have seen only do the dance movements but dont put into it what should be.

**meataxe** · Posted On: 4/04/2007 3:35pm

Originally Posted by lee

l was told ng kam cheun was over 300 lbs.

I just realized the Cantonese... Ng Kam Cheun = Wu Chien Chuan (Wu Jianquan in pinyin).

**lee** · Posted On: 4/04/2007 3:44pm

l did speak a passable cantonese at one time but have no one to speak with as my sifu wanted to learn english and l have been with him a long time . l had my older son in a chinese school for 7 years he used to read and write but we live in a small mountain town now so no chinese population to speak of . so its hard to remember . speaking of time to learn . in shanghai l was told they do the slow simple set for one year then learn the advanced for so l d could see if you worked really hard in 4 years with lots of heart you should be able to fight. my sifu demanded at least 4 to 5 times a week for a few hours or hed not teach.

**IMightBeWrong** · Posted On: 4/22/2007 8:22pm

I'm new but I felt like posting on this one. First off, the video from youtube posted on the first page is one of the funniest god-damn things I've ever seen! A fat guy in workout clothes teaching second rate Taiji on youtube is definitely some quality footage, but not for learning, just a good laugh.

From my experience with Taiji, you can use it as a fighting art if you are against people who have absolutely no idea how to fight and you have been practicing for about 15 years. But that is not to say that I don't think it has any benefits at all for younger people. My instructor asked me to enter a Taiji Quan class for a while because of a problem I had remembering to breathe out with each strike. So I stuck with it for about 3 months, 1 class a week. It helped me with 3 things:

1. It made my lungs healthier and breathing more even.

2. It helped me improve the the twist stance through some of the movements in my particular style of Taiji.

3. It improved my posture more so than my previus 5-animal, long fist and Wing Chun training.

Just my personal experience based on 3 months. I still toss in a couple Qi Gong exercises with my workout to help keep breath regulated. If you like the idea of learning Taiji, go for it, but I doubt you're going to find it useful against any other fighters unless you have the patience to train for 5 times as long as everybody else.

Peace.