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  1. Señor Octavio is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/29/2009 12:12am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey, long time lurker and KSW guy joining in. I know KSW has a reputation of being a McDojang, sham, etc. There is some truth to that, but my experiences have been very positive.

    A lot of schools (some influential ones, too) seem to really enjoy being flashy and elegant for demonstrations. They'll do lots of stuff that's supposed to look cool, but comes across as contrived and impractical. One of the main issues with Kuk Sool is that there is so much to teach, that the really important stuff doesn't get taught quickly enough. Extremely effective throwing moves, clinch techniques, grappling techniques, strikes, and joint-locks exist in Kuk Sool, and are emphasized in good dojangs, but unfortunately this seems to get buried by the 'filler' in others.

    Would I say I like Kuk Sool Won? Yep, 1st Dahn and will continue training. I've become proficient at sparring, bjj-style grappling, and other real-world martial arts techniques, with a variety of other skills adding to my athletic ability and coordination in general. My instructor is open, honest, and extremely skilled. Unlike the instructors some other Bullshido users have mentioned, he has no qualms about telling me he thinks a technique is junk, pointing out the more practical ones with modification, allowing grappling + hard sparring, and his views don't always align with that of the WKSA. If it weren't for him I'm not sure I'd be doing KSW, but the experience and training I have received through him have been great.

    Are there instructors less honest/competent than mine? You bet your ass there are. Do I consider Kuk Sool Won the best training path for someone who just wants to get out there and be an awesome fighter? Nah, you'll get the same stuff by doing some Muay Thai, BJJ and Hapkido for a year or two.
  2. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    6/02/2009 9:04pm

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Señor Octavio View Post
    Hey, long time lurker and KSW guy joining in. I know KSW has a reputation of being a McDojang, sham, etc. There is some truth to that, but my experiences have been very positive.

    A lot of schools (some influential ones, too) seem to really enjoy being flashy and elegant for demonstrations. They'll do lots of stuff that's supposed to look cool, but comes across as contrived and impractical. One of the main issues with Kuk Sool is that there is so much to teach, that the really important stuff doesn't get taught quickly enough. Extremely effective throwing moves, clinch techniques, grappling techniques, strikes, and joint-locks exist in Kuk Sool, and are emphasized in good dojangs, but unfortunately this seems to get buried by the 'filler' in others.

    Would I say I like Kuk Sool Won? Yep, 1st Dahn and will continue training. I've become proficient at sparring, bjj-style grappling, and other real-world martial arts techniques, with a variety of other skills adding to my athletic ability and coordination in general. My instructor is open, honest, and extremely skilled. Unlike the instructors some other Bullshido users have mentioned, he has no qualms about telling me he thinks a technique is junk, pointing out the more practical ones with modification, allowing grappling + hard sparring, and his views don't always align with that of the WKSA. If it weren't for him I'm not sure I'd be doing KSW, but the experience and training I have received through him have been great.

    Are there instructors less honest/competent than mine? You bet your ass there are. Do I consider Kuk Sool Won the best training path for someone who just wants to get out there and be an awesome fighter? Nah, you'll get the same stuff by doing some Muay Thai, BJJ and Hapkido for a year or two.
    I felt the exact same way as you, as a first dahn and all. That is until I attended a throwdown and found out that all I learned pretty much meant nothing against a skilled fighter. Does that mean I couldn't have handled myself against a drunk guy in a bar fight? No, but I figure why should I keep training in an art that charged me out the ass that only trains me to be able to competently defend myself against untrained people. I have trained under solid KSW instructors and still feel perfectly confident in my belief that everything that is taught is a watered down version of what you could learn elsewhere. This is especially true because of the ridiculous number of obviously useless techniques that you are required to learn for promotion.

    Now I don't expect to change your mind. I would just encourage you to attend a bullshido throwdown at some point if one happens close to you and see how you fair in a friendly sparring match against folks that train in different disciplines.
  3. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Here, hold these for me.

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 7:00am

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really the biggest problem is that the "one size fits all" teaching method in Suk Tool creates all the problems.

    People mimic techniques and do not understand them. That and kuksool's need to look like aikido whereby a LOT of cooperation is required by the flipee.

    Octavio, I'm glad you like kuksool and all. But it is a hungry cash machine. Those who study it must really ask themselves this question "Do I really think juhn hwan bup was used to defend the Korean nation?"

    In the end, I cannot think very highly of a man who studied hapkido, incorporated it into his system, then said he never learned hapkido.....only to have his older brother split off and make himself a hapkido grandmaster.
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. It’s the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  4. Wolf is offline
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    T3h R34l Gangnam Style!

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 10:33am

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    for accuracies sake In Sun Seo is IHS' younger brother. Otherwise ^^^^^ is the correct.
  5. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 9:32pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I thought In Sun Seo was older.... In Suk Suh was the oldest. Now he be dead.

    Although he walked like Fred Sanford, he was one bad mufuggah.
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. It’s the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  6. catfishaggie is online now

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    Posted On:
    6/04/2009 11:09pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I heard that too, makes me wish i was around early enough to see him in action.
  7. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 7:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wolf,

    You now live in Indy? I thought you were down South.

    Have you been to James Klingerman's place? PM me.
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. It’s the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  8. Vodalus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 8:37am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: TKMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jkdbuck76 View Post
    Really the biggest problem is that the "one size fits all" teaching method in Suk Tool creates all the problems.

    People mimic techniques and do not understand them. That and kuksool's need to look like aikido whereby a LOT of cooperation is required by the flipee.

    Octavio, I'm glad you like kuksool and all. But it is a hungry cash machine. Those who study it must really ask themselves this question "Do I really think juhn hwan bup was used to defend the Korean nation?"

    In the end, I cannot think very highly of a man who studied hapkido, incorporated it into his system, then said he never learned hapkido.....only to have his older brother split off and make himself a hapkido grandmaster.
    To be fair juhn hwan bup isn't meant to be a self defense technique, and if instructors are teaching it as such that's really a shame. That's not to say there aren't plenty of other techniques out there that only have limited usefulness (at best), so your overall point stands.

    Personlally I there there is a lot of good in kuk sool, inspite of the wksa's alternate version(s) of history, unfortunality I do agree that it is often taught poorly (too much emphasis on teaching the syllabus and not enough on application). Then again I'm just a first degree (far enough in to be in the second degree testing cycle) so I haven't got my own set of pink fans yet. :icon_roll

    All that said I am planning on checking out some other schools in the area when my contract is up in a few months so no need to flame.
  9. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/05/2009 11:44am

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry. I guess I meant that last Gahk Doh Bup technique. Number 10? That's a GH3Y technique if I ever saw one....next to Maek Chi Ki #14. DO THE MANTIS!!!

    Good luck in your quest, Vodalus. Like you, I was almost Kyo Sah Nym, but I had to get out. I found a good jkd concepts instructor who liked to glove up and fight a lot.
    Switching really opened my eyes.
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. It’s the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  10. Tex is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2009 9:20pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a 1st Dan in Hanminjok, so I can speak first hand about that organization. I also studied the history of that Organization in comparison to other organizations within Hapkido proper, and from the offshoots of Hapkido. Over the years, I have made the following conclusions.. in brief.

    KSW - In Hyuk Suh and In Sun Seo were originally introduced to Martial Arts by their Grandfather. However, by the time they were teenagers, Choi Yong Sul and others had been operating Yudo/Yawara Schools in various S. Korean cities.. etc.. It's unclear about any justification for Hyuk being Sun's teacher, but is more likely that he was simply a higher belt rank and taught Sun in that context. Seo(Not Suh) insists that all of the Hanminjok open handed tecniques come directly from Choi Yong Sul, and that he was trained directly by Choi Yong Sul.

    In Hyuk Suh(pronounced SOO) learned from Choi Yong Sul and Ji Han Jae, among others.. Eventually though, he travelled to China where he learned many aspects of Chinese Medicine, mythology, and Martial Techniques. It's rumored that Seo may have gone on some of Suh's journeys with him, but almost immediately after his permament return, they took over the Kuk Sool Kwan.. At that time, it was just another (Gym/School) Kwan of Hapkido. With Hapkido and Yudo's popularity gaining in Korea, and with the firm ground that TKD/TSD had already established, Suh began to look for more opportunities, so he packed up and moved to America. The westernized inception of KSW began.

    In Sun Seo still uses many of the techniques from the Kook Sul Kwan era, as does Hyuk.. You can get the Doboks(General's Uniform) with the Hanminjok patches, and the curricullum is generally the same. They don't emphasize the secondary competition or demonstration techniques as much as they emphasize the core Hapkido standing techniques, falling, throwing, choking, and some grappling. Kicking focus concetrates on TKD/TSD elements, as well as some of the more acrobatic and Chinese stylized kicks. Most of the forms are either Kuk Sool or Mu Sool Kwan.

    One thing about Seo that nobody in Hapkido would dispute was a rumor that I heard about him opening a school in Seoul or somewhere, right smack in the middle of town where there were Hapkido and other Dojangs encircling him. This angered many of the Instructors in the area. Seo, apparently was challenged several times on the street, as well as in his own Dojang.. sometimes being attacked with weapons. Apparently, there is not one of these accounts where Seo not only defeated his attackers, but like Choi in the past, won them over and eventually took them in as his own students. It's rumored that some of these students even went on to become government and militarty officials. This is believed to be one of the reasons why Seo rose to be presiding head of the current World Kido Federation, which Hanminjok claims is fully recognized and sanctioned by the S. Korean Government. Seo was also president of the Dae Han Kidohae after 1983, where he attempted to unify all of the old Hapkido Kwans under one Federation.. Of course, that never happened.

    Hanminjok has quite a few legitimate masters in N. America actually. Some of which were once with Kuk Sool Won.

    In Sun Seo(periodically)
    Steve and Scott Seo
    Serge Baubil(Hosindo in Canada)
    Marlin Sims
    George Petrotta
    James McMurray
    J.B. Murphy

    There are others, but these are the most prominent.

    A note about the current state of the KSW.. I have heard through some sources, not sure, but have heard that Marlin Sims has left KSW and has subsequently joined HanMinJok to keep his belt ranking intact and to associate his smaller schools. I'd ask why, but who knows.. who cares.. The interesting thing is that he just abruptly left the organization after being with them for like 20 or more years. He was one of the highest ranked and most popular of the KSW Masters.

    There is yet another Chinese looking Hapkido oriented art from Korea.. It's called Hwa Rang Do. It's grandmaster makes very similar claims to it's lineage as does In Hyuk Suh for KSW. However, GM Lee(Hwa Rang Do) claims that basically all East Asian Martial Arts derived from the Ancient Korean Hwa Rang Warriors and their Arts.. In reality, both of the Lee brothers were taught by either Ji Han Jae or Choi Yong Sul.

    Again.. we have Hapkido being added to and then called something else for better marketting and to reach a larger demographic.

    When Choi came back to Korea after learning Aiki-jujutsu, he stayed with a Yudo/Judo Black Belt named Suh Bok Sub that he eventually took on as a student of the standing techniques of Aiki-Jujutsu.. The two melded the arts together and eventually the art was called Yawara. They, however, did not put much emphasis on the throws compared to the standing techniqes.. But.. It's interesting to know that Judo did play a part in the overall progression of what is now Hapkido.. Real Hapkido anyway. -AND- Several of the old GMs that were taught by Choi, such as the Lee Brothers and Ji Han Jae, contend that Choi normally called his art "Yawara", and both of those parties basically argue over who actually named it "Hapkido".

    This is an opinion and an opinion only >>>

    Tukkong should not be trained anywhere other than in the Korean Special Forces because that is the nature of Tukkong.. Changing the name and then bringing it to other parts of the world is pure and simple.. MCDOJO.

    end of opinion >>>

    Now.. Tukkong itself is questionable because it is not really a martial art. It is the same concept as the American Military using Hapkido, BJJ, and others to train Special Forces. It is an attempt to strip down all the filler and get to the real resistance techniques. It also incorporates weapon offense, as well as disarm, from an array of outside influences. The forms are all done with rifle in hand and the guys train in Kyuktooki and TKD/TSD as outside fitness sports. They do drills, but they are all TKD/TSD kicks.

    If you think about the facets of that applied to McDojo, westernized approach, then any Tukkong in the USA, IMHO, is complete BS..

    It's like some guy named Tom taking what he was trained as a green beret, opening a school in Dallas, and then calling his art Tom-Do.. No.. Tukkong, outside of Korean Special Forces.. Hands down.. Marketting ploy for the free market economy and the Larpers that wanna lose some pounds.

    Right before I left Hapkido, my instructor had just Associated himself with A Tukkong Association in Korea. The Association didn't even have a website in English, and it was most certainly not the "World Tukong Moosool Federation." Wonik Yi is not a popular figure in most of the prominent Hapkido Circles that I know of.. It will take an inquisition and some dumpster diving, but I should be able to find it eventually.

    While looking around, I found the following link on the the Hwa-Rang Do website. It's a little biased in terms of Hwa Rang Do, but most of what I can see is pretty accurate. I searched it here and couldn't find it. I'll drop some other links that I have for some of this stuff too.

    A Korean MA lineage Map linked to on the Hwa Rang Do website -
    http://www.allmartialarts.com/KIXCO/...istory/map.htm

    Marlin Sims -
    http://www.artofthewarrior.com/Wel.html

    World Tukong MooSool Federation -
    http://www.masteryi.com/index.php?db=main

    Serge Baubil -
    http://users.belgacom.net/hoshinkido.belgium/E/GMe.html
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