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  1. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    herndon, va, usa
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 2:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: karate / bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    u-punches are really shooting for over/underhooks for a seatbelt hold. CAN'T GRAPPLE ME IF I HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE, CAN YOU?
  2. wildwills is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 2:30pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Which just shows you they don't even know the bunkai for Bassai...because I don't think there's anything in there that could be classified as "anti-grapple"...
    Exactly...that's why I picked it as an example. I'm sure they would probably say that the yamazuki after the 90 degree turn would equate to some sort of throw somehow....LOL.
  3. wildwills is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 2:31pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    u-punches are really shooting for over/underhooks for a seatbelt hold. CAN'T GRAPPLE ME IF I HOLD ON FOR DEAR LIFE, CAN YOU?

    Good one.
  4. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 2:56pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wildwills
    Exactly...that's why I picked it as an example. I'm sure they would probably say that the yamazuki after the 90 degree turn would equate to some sort of throw somehow....LOL.
    How does a throw equal anti-grappling?
  5. Uri Shatil is offline
    Uri Shatil's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Mar 2007
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    Greater Boston
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 8:15pm


     Style: Wrestling, BJJ n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wildwills
    You only end up on the ground in Shotokan be either being ko'ed, swept, or losing your balance.
    Right, but what if you're, let's say, fighting a BJJ guy, and you're on the ground, and you do Shotokan... what the Hell are you supposed to do?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath
    You have to take Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to understand Shotokan's ground fighting. My instructor has black belts in both and we joke about it all the time.
    I've done a little bit of BJJ. What you're telling me is that Shotokan ground fighting is just BJJ? So, if you do Shotokan, to really learn all aspects of fighting you also need BJJ?
  6. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Keep going North until I say stop
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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 9:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uri Shatil
    Right, but what if you're, let's say, fighting a BJJ guy, and you're on the ground, and you do Shotokan... what the Hell are you supposed to do?
    Pray.

    Seriously, though, the 'normal' answer is, 'Don't go to the ground.' or some other idiocy. Karate does NOT have anti-grappling. I love Karate, but stuffing takedowns, etc. ain't Shotokan.



    Quote Originally Posted by Uri Shatil
    I've done a little bit of BJJ. What you're telling me is that Shotokan ground fighting is just BJJ? So, if you do Shotokan, to really learn all aspects of fighting you also need BJJ?
    :spanky: If you think Shotokan 'ground fighting' is BJJ then you need serious help.

    Shotokan is Karate, which is striking. BJJ is grappling. Different arts. If you want to learn ALL aspects of fighting, study striking, throws, submissions, takedowns, weapons, etc. The list goes on. If you are looking to add a ground game to your Shotokan, then BJJ is a good choice. If you want to learn more about throws, Judo or wrestling will probably help you.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  7. DerAuslander is offline
    DerAuslander's Avatar

    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    3/26/2007 9:42pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Uri Shatil
    Right, but what if you're, let's say, fighting a BJJ guy, and you're on the ground, and you do Shotokan... what the Hell are you supposed to do?
    Tap.

    Shotokan does not address ground fighting in anyway, shape, or form that would allow you to go toe to toe against a Beejer in his element. If your art has holes, cross-train in arts that fill those gaps.
  8. wildwills is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2007 12:55pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    How does a throw equal anti-grappling?
    It doesn't really. I was just rtying to be unsuccessfully satirical.

    I was taking the approach that a bunkai expert might somehow rationalize the yamazuki as a "hidden" throw in the kata to be used by a karateka against ground fighting.
  9. sochin101 is offline
    sochin101's Avatar

    Graviora Manent

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    Lincolnshire, England
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    Posted On:
    3/27/2007 3:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: No gym currently.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Also one other thing english is not my language.:angel8:
    And I'm guessing Earth isn't your homeworld, either?:icon_joke

    On the whole "groundfighting in Shotokan" question... I did Shotokan (on and off) for something like 15 years and I was NEVER shown groundfighting with an authentic Shotokan origin.
    I've trained with up to 8th dans, been shown bunkai, secret bunkai, hidden secret mega bunkai and I've been shown "throws", locks, sweeps... but never ever anything like groundfighting.
    That's not to say crappling didn't creep into the occasional shotokan class... but it was direct from jujutsu or judo, or once, hilariously, the WWE.

    Maybe I wasn't taught the real shotokan?
  10. Hanniballistic is offline
    Hanniballistic's Avatar

    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    3/27/2007 3:36pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Systems are complete.
    Bollocks - nothing in this world is complete or able to exist in a vacuum.

    Shotokan is a stylised method of combat focused on striking. There are no weapons, no grappling, no mounted combat, no aerial combat...etc. It is not complete by a long, long way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Shotokan is based in the no ritual budish zen and shinto,whitch are similar to the ancient Greek stoik school of philosophy.
    Your basis for this line of thought being.....Making loose, wooly connections to substantiate a claim is poor scholarship. If you are claiming this you must prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Based in such ethics,u have 2 do karate 24 hours per day.
    Physically impossible and logically flawed. Only breathing needs to be done 24 hrs a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Shotokan is a utopia,it is in the nature of the art of Shoto Ryu to go after the perfect technique,and never reaching it.Even if u move from your hara someday,someway,u discover u are so vacant.
    "hara" is a mystic notion that many believe has no merit. You are once again using very loose phrasing that can be interpreted any way. If you stive for perfection, that is good. Knowing you cannot attain it is also good. But that is not exclusive to shotokan and it in no way makes you a better person or a more useful member of society any more than charity work or any other physical endeavour

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    I think a martial artist should work only 4 his art,and thats the way 2 see the unseen.
    Clarify your terms! You are talking nonsense and trying to sound mystical. Instead you sound like an idiot

    The individual defines the art, not vice versa. My art helps me live my life and perform my societal role - the day it takes significance over human existence is the day I stop.

    I train to live, not the reverse

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyktidromos
    Also one other thing english is not my language.:angel8:
    No need to apologise for not speaking english well - you should apologise for nonsense posts and sloppy thinking
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