Seio Nage as an arm break.

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 5:32pm

Originally Posted by Plasma

Well talking about JJJ vs. Judo is comes down to adaption. For example in Japanese Jujutsu Seio Nage is traditionally done with elbow turned down to break the elbow during the throw. For safety in training, it is done the common Judo way with the elbow up. But it still Seio Nage. The throw is there, it is taught. Because it looks like Judo doesn't mean its not JJJ.

I read this a while ago, and it never sat right with me. After learning Seio nage in a Judo dojo step by step, and recently seeing it taught. That statement makes even less sense to me. How are you going to break someone's arm if you're supposed to be a lot lower than the other person (the throwee/uke)? Also your shouldER is going to be under their armpit not their elbow, to properly load them up.

So is there any real evidence to suggest that the arm break was the original intention of Seio Nage?

That is an edited quote of Plasma's, for the whole post and thread check here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...io#post1328501

**Gezere** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 6:20pm

Originally Posted by ojgsxr6

I read this a while ago, and it never sat right with me. After learning Seio nage in a Judo dojo step by step, and recently seeing it taught. That statement makes even less sense to me. How are you going to break someone's arm if you're supposed to be a lot lower than the other person (the throwee/uke)? Also your shouldER is going to be under their armpit not their elbow, to properly load them up.

So is there any real evidence to suggest that the arm break was the original intention of Seio Nage?

That is an edited quote of Plasma's, for the whole post and thread check here:
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...io#post1328501

Yes. Older version of seio nage has the arm held in gyakute in which the elbow is done and braced against the shoulder. In Junte, how its held in Judo, the elbow will be facing up or to the side.

I've thrown guys in gyakute and there was more risk to injuring them, and some said their elbow really hurt, but I've never actually broken anyones arm with it. It also made it harder for them to do ukemi.

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 6:59pm

It's pretty hard to break somebody's arm like that, IMO, you might click it on the way, but if they aren't retarded, they're going to roll it over, not let it break.

**Lily** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 8:23pm

I do JJ so when we go in for the throw it is with the intent of breaking or at least doing some damage to your opponent's elbow (plus throwing them on their head). Uke's arm is rigid when you're loading them up and at this point we're taught to control, straighten and snap their arm down on our shoulder as we throw.

In a training setting we support their upper arm/shoulder so as to not cause injury.

Of course since I've never seen anyone getting their arm broken I don't know if it would really work but it hurts and I think there's a good reason why people hate being thrown in this way at our dojo.

**ojgsxr6** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 9:13pm

The first animated gif in the link is how I was taught to do Ippon Seio Nage.
http://judoinfo.com/images/animation.../ipponseoi.htm

See how he is dropping down to load the guy on his hips (also pulling with the sleeve). I don't see how you would get enough leverage to break the guys arm, no matter which way the guys arm is positioned (elbow up or elbow down).

Ok, so lets say you don't drop down, so now you have enough leverage to break the arm. How do you do the throw without muscling it?

**Lily** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 9:34pm

That gif is not quite how we do it (unless we're babying the tori). We hold their arm differently as already explained by Asia, plus we don't rely on the gi sleeve being there.

No one said you need to keep upright to have leverage to break their arm. As you're going in for the throw, basic concepts like breaking your uke's balance, body alignment, grip, the initial loading on the hips and the quick back thrusting footwork (not shown well in that link) means you don't need to use muscle. But if you got it, use it (p.s. - I'm throwing guys 50-100lb heavier than me with this, albeit muscling it a little more at the top end of the scale.)

**Roidie McDouchebag** · Posted On: 6/06/2007 1:26am

I do JJ so when we go in for the throw it is with the intent of breaking or at least doing some damage to your opponent's elbow (plus throwing them on their head). Tori's arm is rigid when you're loading them up

...unless they aren't retarded, in which case their arm will not be rigid.

**Lily** · Posted On: 6/06/2007 2:00am

Don't use the double negative Cracky.

Generally there are no retards where I train so they're not going to let their arm be held that way as they're thrown.