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  1. dern is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 2:08pm


     Style: Aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    What truly makes the art Bullshido?

    After reading a number of posts I have begun to question what it truly means for an art to be bullshido. Obvious frauds aside, it seems like most people see arts with a philosophical background that dictates practice as bullshido--Aikido being a big one. In most mainstream Aikido dojos, sparring is not done, only kata practice and many techniques are discouraged because of their not being "peaceful" or too dangerous in nature. In other words, arts that are limited in their instruction because of philosophy=bullshido?
    Now, I have also spoken to some people who consider some styles of Aikido to be non-bullshido, such as Aiki Tora Ryu and Aiki Takeda Ryu which both highly emphasize competition and sparring.
    Based upon this, what would you say is at the basis of something truly being Bullshido? The philosophy attached to the art, the art's techniques itself, or its lack of sparring.
    Keep in mind that I am only talking about somewhat reputable arts, no KI blast fraudulent junk.
  2. nezha is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 2:17pm


     Style: Boxing, Wushu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Finally, someone with the real aikido.

    To answer your question: An art is labeled "Bullshido" when the general consensus is that the majority of the practitioners are not training in something that would aid them in a combat situation. Sure, there are probably some people who do aikido in a realistic manner; when someone says "aikido sucks" the "except for the people who train regularly in an alive manner" part is implied.
  3. Dr. Fagbot Q. MacGillicuddy, PhD is offline
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    You are in a lot of trouble.

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 2:42pm

    supporting member
     Style: Twirling Foot Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nezha
    To answer your question: An art is labeled "Bullshido" when the general consensus is that the majority of the practitioners are not training in something that would aid them in a combat situation.
    I do not agree with this definition of bullshido, except for instances in which someone says the art in question prepares you for actual combat despite training methods that depend on fully cooperating partners, that avoid physical contact, or that are simply undemanding and unlikely to develop strength, endurance and overall fitness.

    For me, something is bullshido simply if it:

    1. Falls under a broad definition of "martial arts"
    2. Teachers, students, fans or other practioners or participants make claims for it that cannot be substantiated

    It is important to note that, generally speaking, many so-called martial arts have moved away from the martial aspects of their origins, if even they had any to begin. Some people on this site adhere to a restrictive definition of martial rather than an expansive one, and label any martial art that has little or nothing to do with any sort of combat or contact as bullshido. Rhetorically, at least, this approach has its charms, and in my personal opinion it's probably good for any given martial artist to get smacked in the face or kicked once a while, if not more often, just to remind them of their art's original purpose and provide some focus (as well as hopefully smarten them up or de-pussify them a bit just as a person).

    However, I (and I type this simply as a forum member and general Bullshido participant, not in any official capacity) favor the aforementioned broader approach, and recognize that many people practice what have come to loosely be referred to as "martial arts" for a variety of reasons -- exercise, sport competition, cultural interests or just simple fun. In the case of, say, aikido, or wving chtsun, they may also be a total homo. These people may train in a variety of ways that don't lend themselves to actual fighting of any sort. To me, this is fine, as long as they recognize that fact, and don't make claims as to their art's effectiveness in combat, especially without testing that effectiveness in a reasonably demanding context.

    As a different example,think about this: For fun several times a week I practice a mixture of traditional boxing, what has come to be known as American kickboxing, and muay Thai. For the most part, forum and site consensus holds that these disciplines as they are usually trained and practiced do not qualify as bullshido. However, I do not feel that my training prepares me for a fight in the context of general self-defense, the "street fight" so often referred to by practitioners of martial arts concerned with such things. I say this because I have some experience in so-called street fighting, and feel that applying my kickboxing training to these types of situations would be ineffective to the point of comedy. Not comedy on the level of, say, aikido, but still.

    I hope this provides some clarity, or at least interesting points for consideration and discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
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  4. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 2:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    :iamwithst
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  5. TheBigSwede is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 3:11pm


     Style: Judo + sports ju-jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Martial arts claiming efficiency without being able to provide it, even after long training, is bullshido to me. Those martial arts should be called arts at most, without the martial thing.
  6. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Here, hold these for me.

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 4:08pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The BigSwede and Dr. Fagbot Q are right on.

    If it sounds too good to be true, then it is bullshido.
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. Itís the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  7. DdlR is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 4:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For me, something is bullshido simply if it:

    1. Falls under a broad definition of "martial arts"
    2. Teachers, students, fans or other practioners or participants make claims for it that cannot be substantiated
    That's a slippery slope ... anyone can claim anything about anything, but that doesn't affect the OBJECT of the claim. I could claim that Bullshido.net was a website dedicated to goldfish breeding and it would be me that was wrong, not Bullshido.net.
  8. Dr. Fagbot Q. MacGillicuddy, PhD is offline
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    You are in a lot of trouble.

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 4:55pm

    supporting member
     Style: Twirling Foot Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I say "bullshido" I'm talking about a practice, something people are doing. So the claim is bullshido, not the art. I don't give a **** about the art as some kinda platonic ideal or something. That mindset is for insecure dickholes who base their self-worth on the art itself, rather than the methods used to train it, or their own abilities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hedgehogey
    FORM AN ACROBATIC BRIDGE ACROSS OMEGA'S GOOCH
    Quote Originally Posted by Kidspatula
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  9. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 5:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Bartitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree - call Bullshido on the claim and don't confuse the claim with the art, which leads to sweeping (and ultimately meaningless) generalizations such as "Aikido is t43 suck!!". That's bad tactics because it makes the skeptic more vulnerable - "What, ALL Aikido? Everywhere? Are you sure? How do you know?" ... at which point he has to backtrack and start to make qualifications - "well, OK, SOME Aikido is trained alive", etc.

    On the other hand, if the skeptic is dealing with a specific claim - " 'Aikido is the ultimate method of defense against boxing', says Sensei John Doe on www.johndoeaikido.com" - he's in a much stronger position to prove his point.
    Last edited by DdlR; 3/16/2007 5:24pm at .
  10. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 5:37pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR
    That's a slippery slope ... anyone can claim anything about anything, but that doesn't affect the OBJECT of the claim. I could claim that Bullshido.net was a website dedicated to goldfish breeding and it would be me that was wrong, not Bullshido.net.
    I suppose you could make the case that an art itself isn't/can't be bullshido, only the training of said art; on the basis of the claims and beliefs of the practitioners. But, having said that, and art for example Aikido -as made up of the various techniques- (trained at what ever level/intensity) is a prusuit that supports the belief that training will do some good in a fight. I stand here, you come at me, attacking me, and I preform a move that results in less damage than if I'd just stood there. That alone ties the tecniques, and therefore the art, directly to fighting. Now wushu, as it is only forms, sidesteps that direct link, but the forms are clearly made up of punches and kicks and blocks (and admittedly some other crazy crap) and sometimes swords (admittedly crazy flexible swords).

    Generalizations have to be made, otherwise we'd never get anywhere. As I see it, Aikido and other similar arts, as a rule (and rules can be easily broken) are bullshido. Hell most TKD is bullshido on the basis of the training and rulesets used. So it comes down the the question:

    If I train bullshido, and I realize it, am I still guilty bullshido?

    The answer is, of course I am...I'm just less likely to get my ass kicked after throwing a tappy kick or waiting for the attack. I might put my hands up like I've seen boxers do and hope for the best, or get a beat down because the other guy was a better fighter.

    But at least I wouldn't have gone for the chi blast.
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