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  1. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 6:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well Simon has a very varied background and he's not shy about mixing it up in class. I think what's at fault mostly is that there is too much latitude with regards to what's expected from a WJJF affiliated club. Having heard first-hand accounts of some glaring differences in both general class attitude and technique, I don't find it surprising that there's a few suspect clubs out there.

    I'm surprised you trained for nearly 3 years and didn't get past your 2nd grading. For the simple reason being that it's a requirement for the instructors liability AND the member-to-member insurance that you are not taught anything outside of your ability level.

    e.g. grunt 1 is working againt grunt 2. Grunt 2 executes a throw and grunt 1 lands badly, busting his collarbone and arm up. Grunt 1 is out of it for months so submits a claim on his member-to-member insurance. Assessor asks him what happened at the time of the injury and grunt 1 replies he was practising an Inner Wind throw. Assessor goes off to make sure things are kosher before authorising the claim and finds out that's a brown & white belt technique while grunt 1 is still green. No money paid and Instructor is deep in the ****, losing his cover.

    Assuming you weren't languishing practising the same syllabus for about 2 and a half of those three years, your instructor was out of line. I guess that's besides the point though.

    Yes, your Ju-Jitsu would definitely be miles better as you were practising those techniques in a dynamic environment against someone that didn't want to hit the mats at any cost. Compared to that, Joe Grunt in your old class standing there like a shop dummy with his arm obligingly stuck out must have been like a wet-dream.

    I don't know what to say really. People say our syllabus is ineffective, yet I know that it isn't. Training environment is definitely a major factor and for someone in your line of work, you better have the goods or you aren't going to have a job for long on account of being in casualty every other night. Compliant based training will do very little to prepare you for that.

    At the same time though, how often are you having to use a large proportion of your repertoire in any given scenario? Most doormen I know have a handful of techniques that seem to fit the bill for most encounters and just use those. Does that mean everything else they know is ****? No, it just means that's what works best for them, quickly and under duress, on an individual basis and they've had a lot of on-the-job pressure-testing before they found that out.

    Being able to use martial arts in a fight is just as much dependent on mentality and mindset as it is on training. Not everyone's a fighter :shrug:
    Last edited by PaDJW; 6/09/2007 6:42pm at .
  2. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 6:32pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I can dig that. That is why I stressed that WJJF was wrong FOR ME. If others can work it, great. I'll begrudge no-one who gets what they need from any art (even TKD)
  3. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 10:47pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    Do you not have one-step kata, or compliant learning stages for your techniques before you attempt to apply them in a free-form style to a resisting opponent? Past dan grade, I've seen a lot of WJJF seniors practise in a randori manner. It's even a grading requirement to deal with multiple random attacks against resisting partners.
    So in the grading the attacker is told "Attack with X attack and then resist"?

    Thats not Randori.

    This thread has gone way past your return question, but simply put, if you are not doing Randori for 1/3 of your class after the first couple of classes you are not in a club that comes from the Judo background. Dan grade takes years to attain in most styles, if it takes you that long to learn Randori, the style is a waste of time.

    Yes, the very first time you learn a movement in a Randori based style it is done semi-compliantly. Dont compare that to a lifetime of Kata based training. The two are not the same.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  4. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 5:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In the grading the attacker is designated a number from 1-5 (there's usually 5 attackers in a loose circle) and the examiner calls that number.

    It is totally up to the attacker as to what attack he launches and in what manner. All attacks are at full power and full speed. The only warning the student has is who's going to be attacking him and even then he'll only know after the first attacks by each as he has no way of knowing who got what numbers before that point.

    This goes on for 2 minutes, quick-fire with no breaks between attacks.

    When I said senior students train in a randori manner, they do so in exactly the same way, except usually they'll stick with one partner for a few minutes before changing round. In fact, technically what they are doing is MMA. Maybe they should be doing that from day 1, like the BJJ crowd for instance, but there's problems with that.

    I don't know where you live, but it is becoming harder and harder to get insurance cover for martial arts practise. Recent legislation makes a mockery out of what you can and cannot do. Venues are reluctant to give bookings to groups of adults that bleed all over their mats on a frequent basis. It's only going to get worse, desite the current surge in MMA competition popularity. Litigation ftl.

    I see this as a disturbing trend on this site and others, ever since the inception of the UFC. There's good people here, but If you aren't doing a pureblood MMA, or BJJ, you are **** and your style is ****. BJJ/MMA are the ONLY styles of merit because we all know that's what the UFC/Pride/K1 champs use and if anything else worked, why aren't they competing? Everything else is Bullshido and a McDojo, right?

    Some of us get what we need from the styles we practise and we've found them to be effective enough in self defence. I'm not interested in competition personally. Not saying you are either, you can train 100% randori as much as you like with no intentions of stepping up to be tested. Although I'd have to say training with the same bunch of people in the same manner for so long will end up stifling your development because you're so used to each others quirks. Don't know about you, but personally, the thought of smashing someone's face in, or stomping on their head in a consensual cage/ring match so's I can tell myself that "I'm The Man" is sickening.

    I don't train to fight in a ring. I train "aliveness" in my own time, with other like-minded people and we practise the same techniques we learn in class, albeit without as much passivity and with a lot more agression. I practise the style I do because I enjoy it and on the odd occasion I *may* get assaulted by someone, I'll know enough and be capable enough to not to become a victim. Maybe if my attacker turns out to be a nutjob BJJ 3rd dan on steroids then I'll be **** out of luck and in trouble. Since most muggers and testosterone-filled friday night'ers don't have that sort of training, I'll take my chances.
    Last edited by PaDJW; 6/10/2007 5:07am at .
  5. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 5:32am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    A bunch of stuff
    What you seem to be saying is that you agree these training methods are suboptimal for producing people who can fight, which is all we are saying.

    In addition, on this 'full power pre-determined attack with intent' thing, I used to train in a 'JJJ' where this was nominally the training method, and I never once saw it actually happen. Everyone from the top grades on down threw their attack straight into the technique, sometimes very hard, but never with real 'intent'. How many times do people get punched in the face in you classes? Given how much easier it is to throw a punch than it is to intercept one, shouldn't 'full-power' unexpected attacks be landing a fair proportion of the time, and a lot of people going home with black eyes...
  6. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 6:14am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That sort of thing is reserved for dan gradings usually and people have been left hurt because of them. The senior grades practise looks pretty much like a lot of the throwdown videos I see posted here.

    I agree without reservation that 100% passive/compliant kata based training isn't going to make someone a fighter. The flipside is not everyone wants to be a fighter. Those that stick it out and make it to dan grade and beyond, usually up the ante and raise the aggression stakes in order to promote a more realistic training environment for themselves.

    They still do that with the techniques they've been practising all along, because they have the skill and the modicum of restrain not to **** each other up too much with that sort of training and cause all sorts of legal problems, something I don't believe you can teach to a beginner from the word go.

    In an ideal world, all arguments between adults could be settled by a duel to the death with lightsabres and we could all train how we wanted, when we wanted with 100% power, in order to turn ourselves into the mighty warriors everyone seems to think they need to be since the UFC. You don't need to be Couture or Cro-Cop to stop someone taking your wallet.

    In the real world, there's these things called liabillity, responsibility and common sense. People have to worry about keeping their insurance cover and being able to go to work, or pick the kids up from school . Things that become a bit more difficult when you, or someone else's arm is messed up because you didn't tap out quickly enough from a brutal armbar.

    Being able to beat another well-trained fighter in the ring, or in class doesn't automatically make you the baddest ass on the planet, prepared to take on all-comers in the Ultimate Arena - T3H STR33T. It'll certainly make you better prepared than some Krotty guy who's done ****-all but point-stop sparring and katas, but there's no rules and protective equipment when there's a smashed glass heading for your face.

    Imho, people push themselves into this sort of training because they're afraid of fighting and try to make themselves into something they aren't in the hope the fear will go away. Nothing wrong with being afraid and anything that helps you deal with that is all good, but it still never goes away. You either have a fighting heart, or you don't. The other camp are the ultra-competitive that like to win and dominate, some even enjoy hurting people. If being top dog means messing up another like-minded stranger then it's all good, right?

    Don't know about you, but I find something wrong in that. It certainly isn't for me. Each to their own I guess.

    I guess I'll bow out of this thread as I seen the WJJF mentioned and wasn't about to let it be bad-mouthed without saying anything. I sure bit off more than I can chew :)
  7. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 6:22am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    I see this as a disturbing trend on this site and others, ever since the inception of the UFC. There's good people here, but If you aren't doing a pureblood MMA, or BJJ, you are **** and your style is ****. BJJ/MMA are the ONLY styles of merit because we all know that's what the UFC/Pride/K1 champs use and if anything else worked, why aren't they competing? Everything else is Bullshido and a McDojo, right?
    So you havent read this forum at all have you? Go back and re-read my post, as I directly reference Jigoro Kano.

    Anything that miss-leads the students as to the effectiveness of the style is Bullshido. If you tell your students that you train teh d3adly and yet do not do Randori before Blackbelt, At best you are a McDojo that teaches sub-optimal training methods. Likely Bullshido if you tell your students they are learning how to fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    Some of us get what we need from the styles we practise and we've found them to be effective enough in self defence. I'm not interested in competition personally. Not saying you are either, you can train 100% randori as much as you like with no intentions of stepping up to be tested. Although I'd have to say training with the same bunch of people in the same manner for so long will end up stifling your development because you're so used to each others quirks. Don't know about you, but personally, the thought of smashing someone's face in, or stomping on their head in a consensual cage/ring match so's I can tell myself that "I'm The Man" is sickening.
    Then why do you do Martial Arts? This is about fighting you know. And its not about "I'm the Man" its about how fun and rewarding it is to compete!

    So how do you find new training partners without competition? There are only so many clubs in any city.

    Look, people get stuff from dance and aerobics class, but the teachers tell them it is dance class.
    Last edited by Askari; 6/10/2007 6:47am at .
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  8. Das Moose is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 6:40am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    PaDJW -

    The simple fact is, any guys I have sparred from WJJF have been terrible. I see JuJitsu blackbelts get beaten constantly by BJJ guys I know and boxers I know, and Judoka I know.

    You seem to think that sparring regularly is only for tough hard bastards - the truth is that sparring is built up until you are comfortable with hard sparring, and that only refers to striking ; rolling very rarely results in injuries.

    I also find your claim that you don't do sparring because of legal worries a bit hard to believe - we spar a ridiculous amount in my BJJ and Muay Thai classes and we've never had anyone evn think about taking legal action despite some occasionally pretty nasty injuries.
  9. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 7:13am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    They still do that with the techniques they've been practising all along, because they have the skill and the modicum of restrain not to **** each other up too much with that sort of training and cause all sorts of legal problems, something I don't believe you can teach to a beginner from the word go.
    I sparred in my first BJJ class. The, much smaller, blue belt I rolled with controlled me completely. There's no way I could even have hurt myself, because that's the kind of skill differential a couple of years real training produces.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    In an ideal world, all arguments between adults could be settled by a duel to the death with lightsabres and we could all train how we wanted, when we wanted with 100% power, in order to turn ourselves into the mighty warriors everyone seems to think they need to be since the UFC. You don't need to be Couture or Cro-Cop to stop someone taking your wallet.

    In the real world, there's these things called liabillity, responsibility and common sense. People have to worry about keeping their insurance cover and being able to go to work, or pick the kids up from school . Things that become a bit more difficult when you, or someone else's arm is messed up because you didn't tap out quickly enough from a brutal armbar.
    Your idea of a BJJ or MMA class is hilariously wide of the mark. We do not just get on the mat and attempt to cripple our training partners. We roll, alive and full speed, at whatever intensity is appropriate to their skill level. You'd be considered a pretty piss-poor BJJ player if you couldn't dominate a less skilled opponent without damaging him. It would, furthermore, be pretty unwise to crank subs and injure people unless you wanted a short and unfriendly conversation with 250 pounds of black belt.

    Alive training does not mean some kind of all-out deathmatch in every class. In fact, I used to see more injuries when I trained compliant 'JJJ', because throwing yourself hundreds of times a class is actually more dangerous than the less spectacular falls you tend to take when you're actually fighting.
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    Imho, people push themselves into this sort of training because they're afraid of fighting and try to make themselves into something they aren't in the hope the fear will go away. Nothing wrong with being afraid and anything that helps you deal with that is all good, but it still never goes away. You either have a fighting heart, or you don't.
    In my experience, it's those who train compliantly who remain full of fear, because they never know what will happen when they try to actually use their moves. My RBSD-style paranoia has been replaced with a pretty solid notion of what I'm actually capable of.

    As to 'fighting heart' I disagree completely. One of my training partners is a 140 pound girl, who when she first trained with us was too nervous to even spar. When I roll with her I practice stuff I'm bad at, give her a chance to use her skills and refrain from unnecessary brutality. After a year or so she now dominates guys 20 pounds heavier than her without apparent effort. I have watched this chick go from push-over to fighter, and it took barely twelve months.
  10. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/10/2007 10:57am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sure all of that is true and I certainly don't doubt the effectiveness of BJJ etc. I know I'd most likely get schooled in a match against a BJJ or MMA practicioner, simply because I'm not prepared to counter the array of skills that they have. I'm not trained to fight expert martial artists and here's the clincher: most other people aren't either, nor do they want to be.

    None of that alters the fact I see thousands of people buying into the marketing hype of BJJ and the MMA variants as being the best thing in human combat since sliced bread.

    We all know it wins fights in the ring, under particualr rules and conditions and does so particularly well. It is however very troubling for me to see thousands of years of martial traditions pissed on because of that. Pretty much all the martial arts are now seen as ****, worthless and a waste of time because so-and-so Gracie owned some so-and-so karate/kung fu <insert currently considered useless style here> guy on the telly.

    These arts sufficed for what they were mostly designed for - self-defence - for century after century with no complaints. I think you need to look at the statistical popularity of martial arts in modern times and calculate the likelihood of any one person studying them that has the athletic ability, reflexes and mental attitude that makes them a born fighter. Give that person pretty much any set of tools from any popular martial art and they are going to own most people hardcore, simply because nature wired them that way.

    Most of us have to be content with being merely adequate however and I'll say again, not every martial artist on the planet is preparing themselves for life and death encounters in the great outdoors. For the average wannabe assailant who just wants your money, a lot of the martial arts work just fine. If they have a knife, or a gun then at least be realistic - you're probably fucked anyway, regardless of what training you have.

    Yes there's a lot of crap out there and a lot of instructors that criminally allow their students to go about puffed up with false confidence in their abilities. That isn't the art at fault though, assuming what is being taught isn't complete 100% ****, that's ego, misinformation and false assumptions combining into a recipe for disaster.

    Just bear in mind that for every Ken Shamrock, or Wanderlei Silva there's probably 100's of guys out in the World, quietly minding their own business with no knowledge or interest in the human cockfights that most of you guys seem to worship. Each one of them capable of ripping these living legends a new arsehole.

    Also bear in mind that in my experience there's a very thin line between confidence and arrogance. Most MMA/BJJ guys I've met tend to have that little twinkle in their eye, the one that says, "I'd fucking rip your head off if we ever fought" every time they see another man.

    I'm sure all you guys are a humble bunch, but for those that aren't that sort of attitude tends to attract violence. Paradoxically increasing the likelihood of encountering that which you are spending all that time preparing for. There's always a nutter with a knife with someone's name on it and he won't give a **** about your BJJ black belt, he'll stick you just the same if you give him one single chance. In fact, wasn't a top UFC fighter hospitalised in just such an incident?

    Some people need to examine their motives for training.
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