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  1. Askari is offline

    The Bottom Brick

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 3:41pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    I guess there's enough ju-jitsu and judo techniques to use "ju-jitsu" as a catch-all to describe the syllabus and clubs/organisation. Someone more knowledgable than me would have to give the last word on that though, as I'm relatively new to JJ and grappling arts in general.
    Short history for you then. Today there are two types of Jiu-Jitsu. The Randori based and the non-Randori or Kata Based (even though they are often one step style Kata, these are still Kata based systems working with a partner who .

    The Randori Based can trace their lineage back to Kato and Judo. This includes BJJ.

    The others - can't.

    I personally have a preference for the Randori Based Jiu-Jitsu. With a strong willingness to steal from other sport oriented combat arts such as wrestling and boxing.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  2. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 4:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Do you not have one-step kata, or compliant learning stages for your techniques before you attempt to apply them in a free-form style to a resisting opponent? Past dan grade, I've seen a lot of WJJF seniors practise in a randori manner. It's even a grading requirement to deal with multiple random attacks against resisting partners.

    Anyway, I've always understood "Ju-Jitsu" to be a generic term, like "Karate".

    I found this quote on e-budo:

    "If a Japanese based martial system is formulated in modern times (post Tokugawa) but is only partially influenced by traditional Nihon jujutsu, it may be correctly referred to as goshin jujutsu. Goshin jujutsu is usually formulated outside Japan and may include influences from other martial traditions. The popular Gracie jujutsu system, (heavily influenced by modern judo) and Brazilian jujutsu in general are excellent examples of Goshin Jujutsu."
    http://www.shinyokai.com/Essays_Whatisjujutsu.htm

    Assuming the above to be an accurate definition, then by that definition the WJJF syllabus easily qualifies as (Goshin) Ju-Jitsu, as no emphasis is placed on randori-only training being the sole eligible stipulation .
  3. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 4:55pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do have a level of experience in WJJF and on the whole it was far from impressive. However, my instructor at the time was exceptionally capable in his own right as a fighter an drew a very clear line in the sand betwen what he deemed "syllabus work" and "fighting work". In fact he used to operate a separate kickboxing class because (as he put it) "The striking in this style is shite"

    I was a karateka primarily when I took up JJ, and it broadened my horizons considerably. However, after a few months away training in a different manner (i.e. a lot harder with moe sparring) I went back for a session and I was amazed at the huge difference between my ability level and the other students. Those who were once contemporaries were now miles behind me.

    Now I do not fault my old sensei - he was one of the nicest guys I have met, could scrap like a good 'un and was a very good instructor. What I do fault is the WJJF syllabus, which requires far too much modification to be classed as effective.

    I also trained (once only) at a WJJF school in Manchester. Again they were nice guys (although I was a little unsure about the sensei as he seemed to be a wee bit smug) but I could have walked through the whole club in a heartbeat - and that includes the sensei. I saw a club in Maidstone too that to be honest was absolutley diabolical

    Quality does indeed vary between clubs in any style - but a casua glance at the WJJF videos and textbook shows as much as is needed to know about the quality and realism of the system. In my line line of work the fact I don't use it should betray my feelings.

    I do not know enough about Mr Clark to comment on the legitimacy of his grades - although I have my opinion
  4. Mobious12 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 5:06pm


     Style: San Shou, Kickboxing MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I just wanna poke in that my highschool, and 15 other highschools in my area, use a WJJF sensei for self defence classes as mandatory in gym class. I just finished my self defence course too. As for what he taught us ( claimed to be the most effiecient and easy way to end fights) was shite.
  5. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 5:14pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Anything specifically or merely the course as a whole?
  6. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 5:24pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't comment on clubs affiliated with the WJJF outside of the North Wales/Chester area. I find the "striking in this style is shite" comment peculiar considering my instructor, Simon Rimmington, starts a lot of the classes with the pads, working the jab, cross and hook then moving on to combinations and a round or two of free-form work moving around the mats.

    Maybe they train differently elsewhere. In fact one of my frequent training partners has a long commute to work and has trained in other WJJF affiliated dojos and he said what they were doing was completely different to what we usually do in class.

    If you had trained in a non-compliant manner against unpredictable resisting opponents then moved back to a one-step compliant based environment, of course your ability level (in whatever you had been doing in the interim) was going to be miles beyond anyone else there because they hadn't been training the way you had.

    Sorry to point out the obvious, but that's like me saying I went to a few TKD classes, left for a while to do judo, then came back wondering why the taekwondoists where **** at judo.

    Again I'd have to ask about your experience in WJJF. What level did you train to and for how long? Specifically, which parts of the syllabus that you learned at the time are ineffective and ineffective for what exactly? Your comment about your line of work leads me to believe you probably work the doors. A lot of Simon's students have their badges and employ WJJF syllabus techniques on a nightly basis, not always against ignorant pissheads either. They do more than ok.

    Mobious, what's the name of the WJJF Sensei as afaik most aren't in the habit of doing self-defence classes. It's generally acknowledged as being a waste of time to try teach people how to fight in a few weeks. What specifically was "****" in the techniques you were taught?
  7. Mobious12 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 5:45pm


     Style: San Shou, Kickboxing MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    His name was Robitaille he also does Goju Karate, trains people in MMA, and Okinawen weapons, as he told us in his ad at the end of the ONE WEEK long session. However he always calmed he was teaching us self defense through "British Ju Jutsu".

    Most techniques were...sound, however some of them never invovled strikes to the opponent to weaken them. Most were simple joint locks against a push , or double wrist grab. Also no offence to him or anyone, but I rather not learn how to defend myself from a guy you cant see his toes.

    The thing that caught me was exactly what you said, that a one week course isnt long enough for proper self defense. In his eyes it was, because we repeated the techiques over and over. Also some of them included things like hitting small points on the arm, or throat ( which I can see working and hurt like a bitch) but no one could ever get them to work with the amount of time we had , on a oppenant that will punch back.

    We were doing this, while hitting other areas like the face were wide open, and them hitting us, was aviable as well. Most of the time both our hands were down near one arm, trying to control it.

    Any more details?
  8. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 6:05pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    I can't comment on clubs affiliated with the WJJF outside of the North Wales/Chester area. I find the "striking in this style is shite" comment peculiar considering my instructor, Simon Rimmington, starts a lot of the classes with the pads, working the jab, cross and hook then moving on to combinations and a round or two of free-form work moving around the mats.

    Maybe they train differently elsewhere. In fact one of my frequent training partners has a long commute to work and has trained in other WJJF affiliated dojos and he said what they were doing was completely different to what we usually do in class.
    Exactly - the lack of effective striking within the WJJF syllabus means that individuals HAVE to go elswhere for their striking. You must have one of the better WJJF clubs - one that is willing to mix it up a bit. The core syllabus is still appallingly bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    If you had trained in a non-compliant manner against unpredictable resisting opponents then moved back to a one-step compliant based environment, of course your ability level (in whatever you had been doing in the interim) was going to be miles beyond anyone else there because they hadn't been training the way you had.

    Sorry to point out the obvious, but that's like me saying I went to a few TKD classes, left for a while to do judo, then came back wondering why the taekwondoists where **** at judo.
    Not really - I did WJJF, went to a Freestyle based system (with a lot of self -taught BJJ/GJJ) and when i came back my JJ was better not just my ability as a fighter. That points to massive flaws in the WJJF training methodology

    Quote Originally Posted by PaDJW
    Again I'd have to ask about your experience in WJJF. What level did you train to and for how long? Specifically, which parts of the syllabus that you learned at the time are ineffective and ineffective for what exactly? Your comment about your line of work leads me to believe you probably work the doors. A lot of Simon's students have their badges and employ WJJF syllabus techniques on a nightly basis, not always against ignorant pissheads either. They do more than ok.
    I trained for three years, 2-3 times a week (depending on other factors). Belts did not concern me so I only gained my yellow. The fact I was training in other stuff and held a grade in karate was enough for my sensei at the time to not hassle me about gradings. He was pretty good like that.

    As for my role, check out my user tags. Having worked doors and interracted with them in my later life I can assure you I do see and have seen far more action than most doormen and with far more restrictions on my posible courses of conduct. This is not boasting or meant to belittle the dorrmans work.
  9. PaDJW is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 6:07pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't have a clue who he is. Certainly sounds like nothing much in the current syllabus anyway. "Defences" against grabs and pushes etc are taught at a very elementary level (yellow-orange belt syllabus) and although you see those techniques a lot later, they are taught as part of adaptive combinations.

    Seems to me he was using his WJJF credentials to establish his legitimacy and qualifications to teach, then getting all creative and using a mixed bag of stuff culled from whatever other disciplines he'd learned and called it "self-defence". There may very well have been current WJJF syllabus techniques taught, but without seeing a video I couldn't tell you for sure and it's all a moot point anyway. Pretty much all crash-course self-defence stuff I've ever seen has been mostly bollox, because most of the people learning it will still have a victim mindset and freeze and get fucked-up when attacked.

    They don't have the self-confidence and instincts that only years of training can give you to help them handle the adrenaline dump and the fear response.

    I actually work in a sports centre and I get people coming to me all the time asking for the best guy to learn self-defence from. I tell them exactly what I said to you. You can't teach people to deal with the sort of ultra-violent aggression they are liable to encounter if someone has got past all the usual pre-fight malarky and have escalated themselves into biting-off-ears mode.

    Learn an entire system and train regularly against people that don't do you any favours by taking it easy on you. Then hope you never have to use any of it, as you only usually get the one chance to get it right before you're on the pavement with some psycho stamping on your face.
  10. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    6/09/2007 6:12pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I will actually qualify something - there is material of value in the syllabus...but there is also too much fluff, some ineffective and some downright dangerous techniques in there as well.

    There are still techniques I have that I first learned in my WJJF time - but most have been discarded or modified so that they are no longer recognisable.

    WJJF is not worthless, but there is much better out there FOR ME - that may be key
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