World Jujitsu Federation - Not real Jujitsu

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 5:25am

I'd missed that, remember the poor student feeling all to well any way back on topic ....

Originally Posted by BomberH

No competition = bona-fide

No wonder Kano's Kodokan Judo pissed all over JuJitsu and became the number 1 system in Japan. WJJF is a reverse engineered Judo/Karate/Aikido combination. The most stupid thing is that when compiling WJJF the most effective training tool found within its three ingredients, Judo Randori (sparring) was dropped.

Not sure about reverse engendered but there are components that are defiantly borrowed, more along the, that's fashionable lets include it line, the way the system works though doesn't feel like a simple composite. It is worth noting however if you re combine those three systems (to of which are directly derived form JJJ) then you would have reassembled JJJ from them. Also I believe one school of karate was heavenly influenced by JJ?

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 5:40am

Originally Posted by TaliaSylvia

I don't think he's aware of the trash talking on sites like this.....[rant]....With so many meatheads in one place, it's not hard to see why it's like talking to brick walls. It seems like I literally am. Goodbye, and hope to hear of a visit from some bullshido guy sometime soon.

Calm Down! Did you miss the sign on the door on the way in saying 'NO SCARADE COWS' have a look round the site then come back, this is bullshido being friendly the site has a somewhat costic atmospher in an attempt to get a the truth.

Your thowing insults & offering challanges on other peoples behalf is not a good reflection on you.

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 6:16am

Good posts from Nate and Schwarde. I've come to this late and, from chatting to my sensei and others a lot more senior, my understanding is that Robert Clark took over as head of the BJJA from its Founder, the late Mr James Blundell. Apparently, Mr Clark was very good on the mat but had something of a, er, "commercial imperative". I have been told he was very keen on £££ and allegedly took credit for the work on and off the mat of others. Eventually, this disaffection led to the most of the very senior senseis (including ours) leaving him and founding the BJJA GB. I was also told his rump org withered significantly and I'm also told he's now in poor health so relies on the submission of videos to assess the grades. Apparently, a number of foreign JJ orgs withdrew their recognition of him and their honourary Dan certificates. Don't know more than that. I believe those British clubs who left him, re-wrote their syllabuses and made other changes.
Randori: we used to do this and also we did structured Sparring. We now have less time to do this and it's my loss. It's a useful pressure tester.
Groundfighting: we used to do this and people were strangled out. We had 1 hands-on enthusiast keen to get into BJJ. In Boxing parlance, it keeps you "honest".
BJJ: Well, as a lot of my peers recognise their short-comings, a number have supplemented their training with BJJ and attained Blue Belts. The words "honest" and "pressure testing" apply.
"My Dad can beat your Dad": My Dad is Dead.

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 6:35am

Had a chance to read more now & what GrapplerGabE says in post 37 is pretty fair allowing for club to club variation.

Until the challenge match thing started thread seemed to be going along the lines I already thought, If you have a coach who acknowledges some of the stuff is far fetched & lets you spar it's good, if you stick to the syllabus & do nothing else it sucks.

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 6:55am

Originally Posted by Eddie Hardon

Groundfighting: we used to do this and people were strangled out. We had 1 hands-on enthusiast keen to get into BJJ. In Boxing parlance, it keeps you "honest".
BJJ: Well, as a lot of my peers recognise their short-comings, a number have supplemented their training with BJJ and attained Blue Belts. The words "honest" and "pressure testing" apply.
"My Dad can beat your Dad": My Dad is Dead.

Wow, I almost never see people get strangled out. I see lots of people tapping however. I wouldn't train at a place where people are being strangled out enough to mention it.

**Hanniballistic** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 7:32am

I see Talia has tried to stir up a storm and fled into the ether...how noble and how in keeping with her declared ethics.......

**Blase** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 8:11am

Wow. Just, wow. I'm not surprised that other posters have fled into the ether, what's to be said when faced with a torrent of abuse thinly veiled as criticism? People here sure are up themselves. To the WJJF students remarking on the effectiveness of the system: Do your instructors know what your real thoughts are on the style you are training? In particular to those with high grades: Why do you continue to train there if it doesn't work? Is it for the bragging rights of a high-grade? Shame on you. To the Bullshido members, in particular Das Moose: The remark from the woman was bang on the money. I'm sure Mr Rimmington wouldn't be pleased to hear his name bandied about, but I had no difficulty understanding the challenge for what it was - namely an invite for you to let your opinions be known to someone who works tirelessly for the furtherance of WJJF Worldwide. Das Moose, you're convinced the style is ****, yet you admit you wouldn't tackle Sensei Rimmington in any capacity (here you show some wisdom). If the style is **** and totally ineffective, his 7th dan grade shouldn't matter a jot because it's all a joke, self-promoted blah blah etc right? The fact he's a big man shouldn't come into it either. The argument is about the effectiveness of the WJJF syllabus for self defence. Mr Rimmington isn't in competition shape, but even just using syllabus techniques and none of the boxing/judo experience you assume he has, he'd still damage you severely and in a very short amount of time and the same would be true for most of the posters here. Some people are just dangerous and until you've watched someone built like a brick outhouse weighing probably in excess of 18 stone, most of it muscle, move quicker than your average featherweight boxer and do so with grace and power, you can't really comment. Besides, you can't pick and choose your opponents in a street fight. Saying you'll only fight someone in the same weight class, with your rules and tacking on a proviso that they can ONLY have trained WJJF for, or less than, 3 years is a jest surely? Again, picking a fight you know you can probably win? I can think of 5 students off the top off my head that match your criteria that could hurt you very badly, assuming it was a test of the effectiveness of the system in self defence and not the effectiveness of the system for winning grappling tournaments under grappling tournament rules. The nature of affiliation is such that there are obviously a lot of clubs where standards are slack. People want to be under the WJJF umbrella to give them some credibility, but Soke Clarke can't vet everyone and personally oversee them all. As mentioned his health isn't the best and his time is limited also. There's some intelligent people here and I think it's a crying shame that most of you seem to spend lots of time being the self-promoted champions of the misled masses, exposing the McDojo's for what they are etc. Most people don't care, most people don't even know of the existence of this site. Those that do are probably already clued up enough to know the real deal from the sham. Get over yourselves. I train WJJF and I'm proud of it. Yes the system is lacking in some areas, randori on a regular basis would be great, but it's not the be all and end all of training just because that is true of yourselves. Training for competition isn't the same as training for the street. It has parallels and usefulness yes, but most of the time it is down to attitude. I've seen pro and amateur boxers and kickboxers get schooled in brawls by street toughs with next to no formal training. All their alive training availed them nothing. Again, you don't get to choose your opponents when something kicks off. For the average bloke swinging a haymaker at your head, our Ju-Jitsu is fine. When faced with someone more dangerous than that, you were in trouble anyway. Sorry about the formatting if this doesn't get paragraphed, having to post through a proxy at work.

**Eddie Hardon** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 9:06am

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

Wow, I almost never see people get strangled out. I see lots of people tapping however. I wouldn't train at a place where people are being strangled out enough to mention it.

Sorry for my sloppy phrasing. Well, we had an enthusiastic would-be Groundfighter and aspirant BJJ-er at a time when there were very few such schools. This (nice bloke really) was rolling with a 1st Dan and who he strangled out but came around fairly quickly. For myself (in a similar rolling exercise with another student) I was distracted by my poor attempt to apply a choke (which I was trying to improve) when I saw Darkness fall and realised I was about to conk out and fall flat onto my nose. I think it was muscle memory that prompted a tap; it was barely conscious thought on my part. I will draw a slight veil over the choke incident - not quite as bad as this suggests but he recovered albeit with a lot coughing, spluttering, beetroot-faced etc. No real ill-intent, he just met one of our more "realism" minded students (same kyu grade as me at the time). No real harm done.

**Iscariot** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 9:09am

Oh, happy joy, as if I don't have other things to do....

Originally Posted by Blase

Wow. Just, wow. I'm not surprised that other posters have fled into the ether, what's to be said when faced with a torrent of abuse thinly veiled as criticism?

If you can't endure hostility over the internet I'd hate to see how you'd respond to a physically threatening situation.

People here sure are up themselves.

Pressure testing will do that for you. Training and sparring in an alive environment makes you sure of your abilities, whether you're sure you're **** or you're kick-ass, it doesn't matter. You are sure regardless.

To the Bullshido members, in particular Das Moose: The remark from the woman was bang on the money. I'm sure Mr Rimmington wouldn't be pleased to hear his name bandied about, but I had no difficulty understanding the challenge for what it was - namely an invite for you to let your opinions be known to someone who works tirelessly for the furtherance of WJJF Worldwide.

Your perception of the English language and mine sure differ then, because "I'll issue an open challenge to anyone that feels they have the cajones to take it up." isn't an offer to come for a friendly spar to test technique.

The fact that she was doing it in someone else's name without that person's knowledge is beyond words.

Das Moose, you're convinced the style is ****, yet you admit you wouldn't tackle Sensei Rimmington in any capacity

Your system is a JJJ style, it's primary focus is on grappling. Das Moose beat a first dan in your system with three months training. First dans are apparently allowed to teach. A teaching grade in your system was bested in his primary discipline by someone with three months' training. The facts speak for themselves about the quality of the system as it was represented.

(here you show some wisdom).

Here you show mindless hero worship.

If the style is **** and totally ineffective, his 7th dan grade shouldn't matter a jot because it's all a joke, self-promoted blah blah etc right? The fact he's a big man shouldn't come into it either.

Strawman....but:

The argument is about the effectiveness of the WJJF syllabus for self defence.

Not the whole argument, but some of it relates to this point. If the system is so effective, could you be confident enough to place someone who has trainined purely in it against someone with similar time in training from another style?

Besides, you can't pick and choose your opponents in a street fight.

No you can't. Would you be willing to put Talia, by her own admission an eight stone woman, up against a twelve stone bouncer to prove the effectiveness of your system? No? Didn't think so, see how absurd arguments work both ways?

Saying you'll only fight someone in the same weight class, with your rules and tacking on a proviso that they can ONLY have trained WJJF for, or less than, 3 years is a jest surely?

No, that's called scientific control, by ensuring that both practitioners are similar in height, weight and experience the quality of the system they studied becomes the only difference maker.

Again, picking a fight you know you can probably win?

Are you saying that a practitioner of WJJF with three years of training would not be effective against someone with three years in a different style? Just how many years do you need to train at this style to effectively be able to defend yourself against someone?

I can think of 5 students off the top off my head that match your criteria that could hurt you very badly, assuming it was a test of the effectiveness of the system in self defence and not the effectiveness of the system for winning grappling tournaments under grappling tournament rules.

Five? Name them. Ask them. I can't speak for Das Moose, but if he's put a challenge out then I can imagining him backing it up. Full MMA rules will apply, so you can strike etc. so all ranges of combat will be represented....unless your style can only be effective if it's allowed to bite and eye-gouge....

The nature of affiliation is such that there are obviously a lot of clubs where standards are slack.

So you admit standards are slack in your organisation?

People want to be under the WJJF umbrella to give them some credibility, but Soke Clarke can't vet everyone and personally oversee them all.

Why not?

It's his organisation, why is he handing out affiliation and links to people who is not sure about?

As mentioned his health isn't the best and his time is limited also.

It's understandable that he has limited time, we understand this, but it is his responsibilty and no one else's to ensure the standards of his organisation.

It is not our fault that a dan grade got beaten at grappling by a beginner, and it reflects badly on your organisation and training, not us.

There's some intelligent people here and I think it's a crying shame that most of you seem to spend lots of time being the self-promoted champions of the misled masses, exposing the McDojo's for what they are etc. Most people don't care,

Wrong, most people do care, people want to know what they are investing their money and time in, we provide checkable evidence. You have yet to.

Those that do are probably already clued up enough to know the real deal from the sham.

Again wrong. Most of the members of this site previously trained in dead arts that left them unprepared whilst instilling them with a false sense of confidence.

Get over yourselves.

You first.

I train WJJF and I'm proud of it. Yes the system is lacking in some areas, randori on a regular basis would be great, but it's not the be all and end all of training just because that is true of yourselves.

You're proud of training in an organisation where you have identified a whole host of problems?

The main question is why are you still there and not finding a new club without these deficiencies?

Training for competition isn't the same as training for the street.

Pray tell how you are an expert on this?

We are told that WJJF (true practitioners at least) forbid competition, we'll leave the video proof of a dan grade competing aside for a second, if you don't train for competition how can you compare the training methods or results?

It has parallels and usefulness yes, but most of the time it is down to attitude.

Wrong, in a fight you do not rise to your potential, you default to your training. If your training is substandard then you are in trouble.

I've seen pro and amateur boxers and kickboxers get schooled in brawls by street toughs with next to no formal training.

A pro-boxer in a street fight and losing? My that's newsworthy, I'm sure you could give me this pro-boxer's name and I could check your story with him, his gym and the news of the time.

I'm sure you could if you didn't make it up. Feel free to prove me wrong.

All their alive training availed them nothing. Again, you don't get to choose your opponents when something kicks off.

You don't in MMA by an large, you sign up and the promoter finds an opponent. Again you are using a strawman with no basis.

For the average bloke swinging a haymaker at your head, our Ju-Jitsu is fine.

So you'd put Talia up against 'an average bloke' attacking her with haymakers and trust you JJJ to get her through unscathed? How long must someone train in your system to attain this level of invulnerability.

When faced with someone more dangerous than that, you were in trouble anyway.

So your style is rendered void by a soccer kick? Or any TKDer of Karateka? And you're happy in this system while admitting this?

Sorry about the formatting if this doesn't get paragraphed, having to post through a proxy at work.

You see that's the final thing, based on sentence structure, spelling and grammatical errors and formatting style I believe you are the same person as Talia and will be getting the mods to do an IP check. If they are found to be the same and you cannot provide a good reason it will be assumed that you are using multiple identities for the purpose known as 'sock puppetry' and will be banned accordingly.

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 10:36am

When did Clarke become Ill? He's seemed fine when ever I've seen him (roughly 3 time a year for the last 6) Including well enough to fly to Piza last summer.
Clarke doesn't have to personally go to every individual to vet them but for dan gradings they should be going to a senior instructor either in Liverpool or the national HQ.