World Jujitsu Federation - Not real Jujitsu

**MississippiRed** · Posted On: 6/14/2007 11:12pm

I keep hearing or rather reading the term " good martial artist" from the types who don't believe in competition, hard sparring and the like and it makes me wonder how do you know if your instructor is a good martial artist if he's never fought anyone.

I know you say well a tourney isn't the screet and it isn't however it's about as close as you can get and if your instructor can't perform in competition he more than likely won't be able to protect himself when on the screet either. You see my logic in this.

Only in martial arts do we have this kind of stuff. You don't see guys saying " well I studied brain surgery and I'm a good surgeon but I've never performed brain surgery on an actual patient " .

I mean are you proponents of not competing, and no hard sparring telling me that you can learn how to fight without actually fighting (whether hard sparring or competing) ? I mean if that's your point then it's a point that doesn't have any weight to it and that's been proven time and time again.

So to the WJJF people along with anyone else that thinks this way could you please tell me what to you makes a "good martial artist" ? Thank yall in advance.

Red

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 12:24am

Originally Posted by TaliaSylvia

I don't think he's aware of the trash talking on sites like this. I don't think he'd be particularly bothered either way. Maybe my choice of words left a lot to be desired, but what I was trying to convey is the idea that maybe one of you internet nay-sayers should go tell the chief representative of the association exactly what you're saying here. If you were to do that, then you have limited options to prove that you are someone that knows what they're talking about in regards to this. About the only way you could convince anyone besides yourselves that you are an authority on why WJJF is **** would be to offer to match style v style there and then and video the result. You like videos here don't you?. Or do you bullshido guys only pick matches that you know you could win? Knowing Mr Rimmington, he'd be happy to oblige anyone that wanted a go so there you have it. You can debate the semantics of my post/s all day and night and yes, you have a point that it's not my place to challenge by proxy. You repeatedly fail to understand what I'm trying to tell you to do. Just go there and tell him all this and see what happens. In fact, I shouldn't have to tell you any of this. You all seem to love the investigating thing, digging up dirt on people and visiting dojos etc. Your guys have issued challenges to fight other stylists before now. Multiple times. What's new here? Do your bullshido thing and put your money where your mouths are. Or just shut up about it. It's that simple. I can see why other people stop posting in these threads. With so many meatheads in one place, it's not hard to see why it's like talking to brick walls. It seems like I literally am. Goodbye, and hope to hear of a visit from some bullshido guy sometime soon.

2 things.

1) Paragraphs.
2) Don't issue challenges for others. You want to fight/Spar/Train cool talk for yourself.

**EternalRage** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 12:39am

Originally Posted by TaliaSylvia

If you're in the UK, in particular the North Wales/Merseyside area, browse to http://www.ju-jitsu.uk.com/ and pick one of the classes taught by Mr Simon Rimmington. Turn up and introduce yourself to him. You can't miss him, his photograph and videos are all over that site. Tell him exactly what most of you have said in this thread - namely that WJJF is crap and WJJF can't fight and offer to prove yourself right there and then.

This thread is not about one man. Bruce Lee was supposedly a good fighter, but a majority of today's JKD is crap. This thread is about an organization. Even if Simon Remington is a good fighter - which I hope he is and I expect he has some skills due to the fact that he's highly ranked and your senior instructor - that won't change the fact that WJJF has alot of problems. It's already been confirmed by your people:

Originally Posted by Nate1481

Dam, just come across this not been on much lately , I've done 6 years with the WJJF Coming up 4 2nd dan in September, I'll read though whats been said later. Sort version some stuff, especial the majority training methodologies suck, the federation is out for money & it's run as a franchise (don't even mention the website)
Good is that, a lot of the techniques (or parts of them*) are sound & just need some live sparing practise to be used effectively. Will get back with more when I have more time

*entances into some of them are just ridicules.

**Das Moose** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:03am

I can't afford to go to england. I would also be extremely surprised if Simon Remmington didn't use to box, or do judo, and actually got quite good at those before or at the same time as he studied WJJF JuJitsu.

Because there are a lot of WJJF guys who could beat me. But that definitely doesn't include the ones who only ever studied WJJF.

Okay, tell you what. Here's your counter challenge. I think it's bullshit for you to expect me (or whoever you were addressing that challenge to, I'm going to take it personally) to fight a 7th degree black belt in your style who looks a hell of a lot bigger than me.

So you find me someone who has studied WJJF Jujitsu, and only WJJF JuJitsu, for up to 3 years, and is within 10kg of my weight (so up to 80kg or about 175lb) in Northern Ireland and I'll happily fight them.

Seriously. This is not ****-talking, I had a serious think about what I was prepared to actually do before I made this post. You find me someone who roughly fits that description, and I'll fight them.

**Schwarde** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:46am

Das - I wouldn't bother getting your knickers in a twist over this numpty.

I doubt you'd find many people within WJJF that would want to fight. Not because they're scared - but because they don't train for it and tha vast majority of grown ups in the WJJF will be sufficiently mature to have a reasonable discourse about the strengths and weaknesses of their style/organisation without having to resort to the internet challenge.

Talia - there are several of us on the board who have direct experience of the WJJF, some of us having trained with them. Collectively, we are in a position to be able to make an educated judgement of the WJJF's standards.

Sadly, for you that judgement is that the WJJF has some serious issues. Aside from the way the organisation markets itself (video gradings? even you can't be so blinkered as to believe that that is any way to train in a martial art?) there are questions raised over the standard of training.

My own experience of the WJJF is that there are many good, competent martial artists in the organisation, but sadly there are many within the organisation that appear to hold senior kyu grade and even dan grades that are poor martial artists. The WJJF does appear to award grade on length of time of study rather than level of technical ability.
I have seen first hand a 1st kyu (now first dan) tapped by a beginner (their second lesson). They are a similar age and size and the beginner's prior experience is in shotokan (so no grappling). Now you have to admit that that is fairly damning? It is that kind of standard of ability that causes us to raise issue over the quality of training provided by the WJJF.

No one on here claimed your instructor could not fight, but I'm sure that he would be far from happy that you are making challenges on his behalf.

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:50am

Sorry home Inet is down so posting from work & must be brief.

I would not recommend most WJJF clubs as sole training. If however you look on it as a pure technique session, learning things to be practised later it's ok (hence why I now train at an MMA club as well). I've had a couple of training partners who were willing try things & wanted to make techniques work against someone who wasn't falling over, playing with the techniques and you figure out if it will work for you or not and most potential could, i.e. the principles are sound.

Having started BJJ last summer after 5 years of almost nothing but WJJF (few open mat sessions & a little kick boxing) I picked things up & was well ahead of other starters who'd been there a couple of months, the principles are similar so I picked it up faster (I still suck but that's just me) It's not the best preparation & you'd do better to go straight to BJJ, however you are learning different things, the is only basic groundwork in WJJF stuff, the throws are largely similar to judo (there's an evil version of Hane Makikomi called the head-hip & knee) but the lack of sparing means that when I've tried randori I'm only orange/green level, as, while I know lots of throw, I'm use to approaching them from a block with weakener strike and have difficulty getting into position.

One thing it does have to offer are the escapes, various methods (some convoluted some simple) of escaping from being grabbed (no not the wrist), these are not aimed for use in the ring they are self defence techniques, simple escapes from strangles are taught on the first belt (it's syllabus based) with basic one punch block-strike moves (yes one steps suck) and breakfalls. They would benefit from drilling more and a sparing back ground, and while against an experienced fighter they might not work and one or to would be a bad idea against a drunk idiot in the pub, which is the most likely application they have merit.

Don't get me wrong the lack of sparing and McDojo tenancies are issues, but if you add sparing & reduce the money grabbing it's not bad. I've had a good instructor, William Riley 7th dan, TaliaSylvia may have heard of him he runs the Katana clubs over in Oldham, (E. Manchester), he follow the party line on being anti-sport but he is good technique wise.
I have heard of & met Mr. Rimington, he took my 1st dan grading, he knows his stuff but against a decent weight matched MMA fighter I would not expect him to win unless he spars more than mos WJJF guys do, this said he'd kick my arse and would probably last a lot longer then most.
Professor Clarke I I have also met repeatedly & I think he's the leader on the Money drive, He seems to know his stuff when taking gradings, but I have never seen him train so can't comment.

That was longer than I intended hope it makes sense peen righting piece meal while working.

p.s. On McDojo notes there is a separate junior syllabus the and Junior BB is a seperate rank, there used to be an upgrade form Junior to senior taken at 16 but don't know if this still holdss

P.P.S As can be seen on the site posted above there are NVQ coaching qualifications that can be taken, these say nothing much on skill but a lot on teaching ability, NVQ 2 is roughly GCSE/AS equivilant.

**Das Moose** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:54am

Well I was challenged to put up and shut up, and with certain reasonable limits, I will do so.

Bullshido is about backing up words with actions.

**Schwarde** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:58am

Originally Posted by Nate1481

On McDojo notes there is a separate junior syllabus the and Junior BB is a seperate rank, there used to be an upgrade form Junior to senior taken at 16 but don't know if this still holdss.

Nate - I think that's a good and fair assessment.
The junior BB's have to take the adult 1st dan grading on reaching 16 (or within 12 months of reaching 16)

**Nate1481** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 4:58am

By the way Das Moose what the odds on you making a thowdown soon? There are a couple coming up, on the mainland or if were going to Bratislava sure we can get a few over the Irish sea.

**Das Moose** · Posted On: 6/15/2007 5:09am

I'd love to come but I'm a very poor student and what little money I have goes on training, competing, and alcohol. I will be coming up to glasgow for a weekend in september for a friend's birthday, I might be able to squeeze in some sparring around that or possibly head up a bit early. As I said in the throwdown email list, anyone who wants to come over to NI will have full room and board with me for the duration of their stay, and ample opportunity to train.