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  1. blacktiger is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 10:23am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There seems to me to be a bit of a red herring here. Every rumor I have heard about DT is based around manipulation of the pulse/blood. I think the whole PP thing is a kind of quack non-sequetor. I have never seen how the manipulation of just the musculature and nervous system could have any real detrimental effect on the heart and other organs aside from massive force being applied to from the outside. There isnt even a psuedo science around it and anything I believe in has to have science to back it up. The no-touch thing is an even further digression of the idea.

    Specifically, I would like to know if anyone here believes that the manipulation of the pulse/blood from outside can have an ill effect on people. Does anyone know why it would or wouldnt work? I dont think it is required to prove "in the ring". Hell, I would be happy to accept that it only worked on compliant/incappacitated/unsuspecting people as long as there is real science behind it.

    And I agree with g2b. If the thread is to be about investigative theories about DT or DM then simple word of mouth, regardless of how correct or incorrect they very well may be, should be accepted but not held as emperical fact.
    Last edited by blacktiger; 3/15/2007 11:06am at .
  2. OnceLost is offline
    OnceLost's Avatar

    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 12:06pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not sure there would be a way to establish a control unless the sample size was absolutely huge...other than that, I think you'd get an Ignoble Award for even attempting something like this.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  3. glad2bhere is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 12:15pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wonder if anyone knows a competent/licensed Accupunturist who might be willing to participate in an experiment or, series of experiments. I am sure that any number of athletic individuals would be willing to volunteer as "guinea pigs". As I mentioned before we don't need to be talking about lethal techniques here. All I am interested to know at this juncture is whether or not a person can invoke an involuntary response in a person simply by virture of touching a point (or series of points) under dynamic conditions. Thoughts?

    BTW: Not to be difficult about this but for myself I would not characterize consciouness or self-report by a volunteer as acceptable. As far as such things as pulse rate, or heart beat, I think we would need a control to measure a similar experience but not targeted against a meridian point. Hope this last makes sense.


    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  4. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 12:23pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think I would like to pursue this, but may probably do more with the other thread. That seems to be moving in the direction of actually testing if we can either prove or debunk the idea of manipulating meridians/qi-flow in orer to elicit a response. The way I figure it, if we can produce an involuntary response under dynamic conditions maybe there is an outside chance of a case for all this "Death Touch" talk. Otherwise, I think we ought to take it out back and give it a respectful burial as an artifact of a past age, yes?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  5. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 1:39pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? here, have the entire abstract of the following study pulled or ordered and read through for yourself...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    From and empirical/scientific/mathematic perspective, any debate about the "existence" of the "death touch" IS all theoretical and academic "what if's" at this point; unless you are an old school Qi Gong zealot or a severely indoctrinated George Dillman lemming.
    Last edited by GoldenJonas; 3/15/2007 1:43pm at .
  6. Mr. Mantis is offline
    Mr. Mantis's Avatar

    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 3:57pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am all for taking a qi gong master who purports to have dim mak capabilities, and let him dim mak a death row inmate.

    However, I don't know any dim mak masters. Though I did know of a person who said he knew it. But I don't know. I think he could just hit very, very hard. And I don't know any governors who will let us take such a person into a prison to administer death by dim mak.

    I see what you are interested in though, and I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around the "method" portion of your emperical study. How do you propose to do this study over what may have been done in the journal article Goldenjonas posted?
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  7. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 4:00pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    I am all for taking a qi gong master who purports to have dim mak capabilities, and let him dim mak a death row inmate.
    This would be better if we promised the death row inmate a commuted sentence if he survived. AND he gets five minutes in a locked room with the qi gong master. :evil:

    Either way, somebody dies.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  8. glad2bhere is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 7:57am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    Why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? here, have the entire abstract of the following study pulled or ordered and read through for yourself...

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

    From and empirical/scientific/mathematic perspective, any debate about the "existence" of the "death touch" IS all theoretical and academic "what if's" at this point; unless you are an old school Qi Gong zealot or a severely indoctrinated George Dillman lemming.
    The reason that I was advocating for the approach I mentioned was that I do not believe the approach in the article you cited reflects the application that we are discussing. I DO respect the efforts of the researchers in the article to use such bio-feedback as EEG to standardize measurement of the subject's response. All Good. However, we are talking about a bit different scenerio from what I understand. Please allow me to explain.

    a.) A change in metabolism can be induced simply by falling down and getting back up. For this reason inducing a metabolic change such as heart rate, respiration or nervous activity is not a good measure if one starts from a quiescent state. ANY motion or activity from a quiet state will cause a change in heart rate or respiration. For this reason alone I suggested that a volunteer be in motion, such as moving around a ring when the meridian point would be stimulated.

    b.) Unconsciousness, loosely speaking is the absence of activity, if you will. The fact is that one can induce unconsciousness in many people simply by having them stand-up too fast. Its called "fainting". I think it is a mistake to attempt to measure change by identifying what is NOT happening. What I was suggesting was that a person of reputable skills identify a point which would expectedly produce an identifyable response: IE. "If I press these two points his bladder will empty within two minutes."

    c.) We need to keep a clear distinction between PP work and what we are calling "DIM MAK". From what I understand pressure point work is a well-known and often used practice in Aikido and Hapkido, Judo, Ju-jutsu and Chin Na. It is also common for concussive arts such as Karate, TKD and Western Boxing to target specific weak spots in the Human structure. However, if I am understanding the discussion we are talking about compromising the ability of the opponents body to maintain its equilibrium by a moderate stimulation of points not obviously connected to the structures that are effected. To put it in simpler terms, if I punch a guy in the jaw, noone would be surprised to see him go down. But if I tap two points on his left arm and he drops we might want to consider that DIM MAK has some merit, yes? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  9. redazncommieDXP is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 3:42am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know it seems crude, but couldn't this be tested on animals? Pigs have very similar anatomies to humans, and animal rights issues aside, what works on a human should also work on a pig. And with an animal like a pig, it should not cause too much of a fuss to try and dim-mak it to death. After all, we slaughter the poor things by the hundreds of thousands every day. Four or five pigs are a small price to pay for ending a worldwide debate once and for all.

    If it works consistently on a pig, it should be safe to assume it will work on a human. If not, more testing may be in order.
  10. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/02/2007 8:39am


     Style: submission grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO, Dim Mak is based on adversly effecting the flow of chi. Step 1 of this project would be to confirm the existence of chi in a scientific manner. Until you do this the basic premise for any experiment is suspect. As to whether this is a valid experment, I will leave that up to the reader.
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