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  1. Freddy is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2003 6:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Be Happy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    From my understanding O Sensei original taught aikijujitsu not aikido. That came much later on???
    Ghost of Charles Dickens
  2. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/23/2003 9:39am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welll, for what I have seen from books and photograph, there isn't a single technique in aikido which is not in daitoryu aikijitutu.

    So the big question is whether Morihei Ueshiba ever taught something new or different from daitoryu? Has he been unduly credited for something which he didn't do anything to create? Is aikido McDonald version of aikijujitu?

    This deserve separate thread in my view.
  3. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/25/2003 9:24am

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     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Look. I made my case of the guy being outrageous liar and shameless self promoter based on copyrighted document of his interview which are false beyond reasonable doubt. Though there are those who make the same claim without much to back it up, what I did was bit more than *IMHO*.
    What case did you make? I must have missed it. How have you proven him a liar? All you have done was make the same statement over and over again....."He doesn't have documentation..." What proof do you have to the contrary? Do you have documentation that he was in Aikido? Do you have documentation that he was just some bum on the street that learned a few moves? There are actual living GM's who learned under him. Go talk to them about their experience. So far you have proved nothing.

    I think we all agree that the guy had no connection to DR even though indirect connection through aikido or attendance of few DR seminar may be still possible. With that in mind, read the interview again. He didn't just claim to have an instructor's certificate (kyoju-dairi). He claimed to be the sole successor of Daitoryu, not to mention about him teaching Japanese imperial family which at that time was worshiped as semi god. If this is not bullshido, I don't know what is.
    I do not agree that he had no connection to DR. In fact just the opposite. Keep in mind translations between English and Korean and literal sayings that may take place. Example in Korean I may use a phrase that would translate to I'm going to kill him, but in Korean it would me nothing more than I am going to beat him in the game or beat him in the race. My point? GM Choi may have said something that he was shown the whole system or handed the system to learn but the interviewer may have taken it out of context. Remember this is the interviewer's perspective.

    On the other hand, you are making a case that he is NOT a shameless self promoter based on an story of "he never sought a teaching job. He was asked to teach after being seen defending himself" which is obviously based on oral accounts of himself or his students. So you are basing your argument on assumption that their oral account is true when it is the credibility of their oral account itself which is contested. Does the words "circular logic" mean anything to you?
    How the hell do you think history is written? By people who were there. Would you have felt better if GM Sup wrote down everything that happened that day? (Dear diary, today I saw this old dude whoop the ass of some younger dudes so I wrote it down to mark this day in history just in case in the future when they have invented a way to communicate across the seas, they will not argue that this happened or not happened and thus bring peace on earth)
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  4. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/25/2003 6:47pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are pathetic.

    He claimed to be

    - THE chief instructor of Daitoryu. Choi's claimed that (in reference to any change to their life after Hawai exhibition) "we continued to tour and teach and at the same time." This would have left literally thousands of eyewitness.

    - Martial instructor of top government officials and Japanese IMPERIAL FAMILY which would have produced staggering amount of documentation including money transfer, security record, their schedule record not to mention the first hand testimony of those people and their entourage. Not even a single mention in someone's diary has been produced.

    - The leader of demonstration group of Takeda Sokaku's historic trip to Hawai where he would have left numorous trail in paper work in both Japanese and American side of officialdom especially immigration.

    Mistranslation? You got to be kidding. Specific reference to facts like these (when where what) don't get mistranslated Haven I not proven him to be a liar. No if you think vampire, alien abduction and Kamehameha has not be proven to be untrue.

    Are you Fox Molder. Do you have a poster on your wall which say "I WANT TO BELEVE"? Could it be possible that there is a conspiracy involving literally 100 of 1000 of people to cover up the existence of true successor of one obscure martial arts style. But why? Because, here is a secret. Daitoryu is the hidden weapon of mass destruction of Japanese nation which would be unleashed in year 200X. Japanese are reptilian from another planet who has been plotting for thousands of years to bring Armadegon to this planet earth. Hawaian are slave race who are mind-controlled by Japanese since the Pearl Harbour, which incidentally explain why so many Japanese visit Hawaii. Japanese are so evil and technologically advance that not a single foreigner who visit Japan have clue. Anyone who discover any evidence to prove this will be mindwiped or replaced by clone. And guess what, not a single person has proven this to be untrue.

    .

    Edited by - vapour on August 26 2003 05:39:54
  5. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/26/2003 8:35am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are pathetic.

    He claimed to be

    - THE chief instructor of Daitoryu. Choi's claimed that (in reference to any change to their life after Hawai exhibition) "we continued to tour and teach and at the same time." This would have left literally thousands of eyewitness.

    - Martial instructor of top government officials and Japanese IMPERIAL FAMILY which would have produced staggering amount of documentation including money transfer, security record, their schedule record not to mention the first hand testimony of those people and their entourage. Not even a single mention in someone's diary has been produced.

    - The leader of demonstration group of Takeda Sokaku's historic trip to Hawai where he would have left numorous trail in paper work in both Japanese and American side of officialdom especially immigration.

    Mistranslation? You got to be kidding. Specific reference to facts like these (when where what) don't get mistranslated Haven I not proven him to be a liar. No if you think vampire, alien abduction and Kamehameha has not be proven to be untrue.

    Are you Fox Molder. Do you have a poster on your wall which say "I WANT TO BELEVE"? Could it be possible that there is a conspiracy involving literally 100 of 1000 of people to cover up the existence of true successor of one obscure martial arts style. But why? Because, here is a secret. Daitoryu is the hidden weapon of mass destruction of Japanese nation which would be unleashed in year 200X. Japanese are reptilian from another planet who has been plotting for thousands of years to bring Armadegon to this planet earth. Hawaian are slave race who are mind-controlled by Japanese since the Pearl Harbour, which incidentally explain why so many Japanese visit Hawaii. Japanese are so evil and technologically advance that not a single foreigner who visit Japan have clue. Anyone who discover any evidence to prove this will be mindwiped or replaced by clone. And guess what, not a single person has proven this to be untrue.

    Engrish does not mine strong point.

    Edited by - vapour on August 26 2003 05:39:54
    So now you have resorted to name calling and yet you call me pathetic. ha.ha.ha.ha.ha...

    Again, you have never, to this date, presented a single thread of DOCUMENTED proof to bunk any of these claims. I am going by your standards that you are setting. Those standards being documentation. Where are your documents proving that he is a fraud? First of all I never said at any given point that I believed verbatum his story. However, what I have said and I will stand by is that GM Choi must have learned something while he lived in the Takeda house. Who he learned it from, I don't know. Circular logic? Yes, I am coming at you with the same logic that you are using..a simple point and counter point. Which basicly leaves us no where.

    You keep claiming that he went out and learned it from someone else. Ok, I am not sure what your experience is with Koreans, however, during the Japanese occupation the average Korean was nothing more than a 3rd class citizen. Hell, dogs had more respect than they did. Those who were lucky enough to have high infuential families were sent to Japan to study. Even those people did not receive a lot of hospitality. People like Choi were slaves pretty much, so what makes you think that he; a) had the money to go learn from someone else and b)had the blessing of his owner/master of the house to just go and leave his duties to study? This is fact, documented facts. You don't believe me? Go to Korea and talk to some of the elders who were alive at that time, listen to the stories they have to tell you. Oooops...then again it would do you no good since their stories aren't documented. I have been there, I have talked to my wife's uncle's and aunt's who lived through that ****. So when I hear you speak of Choi just willy nilly going out to take some lessons, I can't help but think you don't know what you are talking about when it comes to that part of Korean history.

    If you want to continue this debate, fine. I have no qualms of learning. However, if you are going to resort to flaming and name calling well, to be blunt I will just start deleting out you posts because I am not going to tolerate that type of behaviour on this forum. Take it to the Cage forum and spew all you want.

    Jeremy M. Talbott

    ~Edited some spelling errors

    "It takes a big man to cry. But it take an even bigger man to point at him and laugh" Deep Thoughts

    http://www.koreanma.homestead.com/index.html
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    Edited by - miguksaram on August 26 2003 11:24:46
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. Fighty McGee is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2003 10:25am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Vapour,
    I appreciate your viewpoint, but it does get soured by derision. So far, I have enjoyed this volley.
  7. Fighty McGee is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2003 10:48am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To get this back on track, I will quote my opening statement from the other Hapkido thread here:

    "Facts, mostly undisputed by the Hapkido community (feel free to dispute, if you have better info):
    1. Hapkido was started by Choi Yong Sul.
    2. Choi Yong Sul learned *some* kind of Japanese Jujutsu while in Japan.
    3. Choi's art was originally called various names other than Hapkido, and had a more Japanese identity-- among them were Yawara, Yul Sul, Hapki Yu Sul, Yu Kwon Sul, and others. Some suggest that he also called it Daigo Ryu (or Dai Dong Ryu) Yu Sul, stressing it's possible Daito Ryu roots.
    4. Choi met, and was sponsored by Suh Bok-Sup, a 1st Dan Judoka. Early Hapkido therefore has many counters to Judo attacks.
    5. It was observed that many of the kicking techniques were added within the first few years of larger development of Hapkido by various people other than Choi, as well as many Judo techninques, and many of the more esoteric hand strikes, although Choi vigorously used Atemi in his early versions of the art (Yawara, et al).

    Some points of contention:
    1. Hapkido is directly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.
    2. Choi was a servant of Sokaku Takeda.
    3. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda directly, and had fought as a champion in minor challenge matches for him.
    4. Choi learned Aikijujutsu by watching Takeda and his students, but since the feet were obscured by the Hakamas they wore, Hapkido’s footwork is different.
    5. Hapkido’s footwork is different because of the inclusion of kicks and circular striking techniques.
    6. Hapkido’s kicks are of Tae Kyon origin (some are attributed to Temple monks, and Taoist Lee).
    7. Hapkido’s kicks are of the same origin as Tae Kwon Do (Japanese/Okinawan Karate, Shotokan).
    8. Choi does not appear on the Daito Ryu roster kept by Takeda because of his lowly status as a Korean house boy.
    9. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda’s wife, thereby not appearing on the roster. Claims are made of studying directly under Takeda because of the inherently male-centric Korean and Japanese cultures.
    10. Choi learned a completely Korean (and eons old) standup grappling and striking art, not Aikijujutsu.
    11. Ji Han Jae, an early student of Choi's, could more aptly be considered the founder of what we today recognize as Hapkido. He added much of the kicking, striking, and boxing defense techniques. He came up with the name Hapkido, which Choi later adopted as well."

    Certainly Hapkido's history needs some clarification.
  8. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2003 7:17pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Fact/occurence produce evidence(s). The evidences of nonexistence of fact or occurance are by defnition nonexistence.

    In turn, it is an one of the most common semantic defence in fradulant claim to demand this impossible standard of proof of evidence of nonexistence of fact/occurence for refutation.

    Also, it is the point in which someone's dishonest intention is clearly revealed because, while demanding this impossible standard of proof for refutation, the person is obviously failing to apply the same standard to the position he is defending, in this case, choi's claims.

    Because this line of argument make any refutation impossible, it become pointless to assert anything including choi's claim to Daitoryu, which is incidentally the point I was making with sarcasm in previous comment.

    Hence,

    "Scepticism is not irrefutable, but obviously nonsensical, when it tries to raise doubts where no questions can be asked. For doubt can exist only where a question exists, a question only where an answer exists, and an answer only where something can be said." - 6.51 "Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus", Ludwig Wittgenstein

    So here is simple Yes or No question.

    Do you HONESTLY believe Choi was the chief instructor of Daitoryu who taught Japanese Imperial Family and accompanied Takeda to Hawai as the leader of demonstration team?

    .

    Edited by - vapour on August 26 2003 19:25:05
  9. Vapour is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/26/2003 8:11pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    1. Hapkido was started by Choi Yong Sul.

    No, I believe that Hapkido was consolidation of Korean Yawara practioners, large majority of them being aikido practioners. I think if I wait long enough this fact will be *revealed* like it did in TKD's case.

    2. Choi Yong Sul learned *some* kind of Japanese Jujutsu while in Japan.

    Yes, I agree on this.

    3. Choi's art was originally called various names other than Hapkido, and had a more Japanese identity-- among them were Yawara, Yul Sul, Hapki Yu Sul, Yu Kwon Sul, and others. Some suggest that he also called it Daigo Ryu (or Dai Dong Ryu) Yu Sul, stressing it's possible Daito Ryu roots.

    Can't really say anything about this but I don't smell politics here so I don't really have reason to doubt this.

    4. Choi met, and was sponsored by Suh Bok-Sup, a 1st Dan Judoka. Early Hapkido therefore has many counters to Judo attacks.

    The same as the above.

    5. It was observed that many of the kicking techniques were added within the first few years of larger development of Hapkido by various people other than Choi, as well as many Judo techninques, and many of the more esoteric hand strikes, although Choi vigorously used Atemi in his early versions of the art (Yawara, et al).

    The same as the above.

    Some points of contention:

    1. Hapkido is directly derived from Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu.

    No point starting over the debate again.

    2. Choi was a servant of Sokaku Takeda.

    This so far hasn't seem to be contested. However, I haven't seen anywhere this has been confirmed either. If anyone can point to me to any confirmation such as existence of Choi's residential registration, I would appreciate it.

    3. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda directly, and had fought as a champion in minor challenge matches for him.

    Same with any other choi's outrageous claims, when any valid evidence pop up, I will make apology to miguksaram and any other HKD practioners for calling their founder an outrageous liar.

    4. Choi learned Aikijujutsu by watching Takeda and his students, but since the feet were obscured by the Hakamas they wore, Hapkido’s footwork is different.

    O.K. in that case, how aikido/aikijujitu students learn the footwork. Is there a secret indoor training where they practice naked? Hakama=Way-to-hide-footwork is another martial arts myth. Mind you, there are slight advantage of being able to slide forward your backfoot without your opponent noticining it. However, Samurai did not wear Hakama in battlefield and in dueling, Hakama was raised and tied to be like short so it won't interfer with footwork.

    5. Hapkido’s footwork is different because of the inclusion of kicks and circular striking techniques.

    Is it that important? Wouldn't it be much better to talk about comparative merit of different footwork? Anyway, I would appreciate if someone can explain to me HKD's footwork and why it is done that way.

    6. Hapkido’s kicks are of Tae Kyon origin (some are attributed to Temple monks, and Taoist Lee).

    For what I have read so far in this forum, the last of Tae Kyon practioner was discovered only recently and Tae Kyon is, in fact, not an martial arts. So No.

    7. Hapkido’s kicks are of the same origin as Tae Kwon Do (Japanese/Okinawan Karate, Shotokan).

    This, I think, is more likely.

    8. Choi does not appear on the Daito Ryu roster kept by Takeda because of his lowly status as a Korean house boy.

    Him being taught in secrecy seems to be invented by others to explain embarrasing lack of evidence which is contradicted by Choi's claimed to have taught publically as the chief instructor of Daitoryu.

    9. Choi learned Aikijujutsu from Takeda’s wife, thereby not appearing on the roster. Claims are made of studying directly under Takeda because of the inherently male-centric Korean and Japanese cultures.

    The same as the above.

    10. Choi learned a completely Korean (and eons old) standup grappling and striking art, not Aikijujutsu.

    No, then again, it is another assertion which is impossible to refute because no one has seen this unknow art.

    11. Ji Han Jae, an early student of Choi's, could more aptly be considered the founder of what we today recognize as Hapkido. He added much of the kicking, striking, and boxing defense techniques. He came up with the name Hapkido, which Choi later adopted as well."

    HKD an evolving art is certainly a valid statement and I think more people can take credit for the evolution of HKD. As of who started calling the art HKD, I have no idea. However, it was a brilliant move in a sence that, together with HKD = 2000 years old Korean art, it has managed to pretty much absorb all Yawara (aikido&koryu jujitu) practioners in South Korea.

    Certainly Hapkido's history needs some clarification.

    Do you think HKD is the only art which need clarification? While doing google research of this topic in Japanese, I stumble upon a site which was making argument that Takeda Sokaku created Daitoryu and this Daitoryu being the secret art of Takeda clan is bullshit. If what this site say is true along with my assertion,

    HKD - False claim about Daitoryu origin. Likely to have been originated from Aikido

    Aikido - False claim about the founder *inventing* the arts. Possible McDonald version of Daitoryu with peace love and harmony thingy.

    Daitoryu - False claim about being ancient arts of Takeda clan. The founder, Takeda Sokaku in this case, was know money grabber, the fact, amply coraborated by his students.

    "Lineage = Send Your Money This Way."

    .

    Edited by - vapour on August 26 2003 20:39:57
  10. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/27/2003 10:00am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Do you HONESTLY believe Choi was the chief instructor of Daitoryu who taught Japanese Imperial Family and accompanied Takeda to Hawai as the leader of demonstration team?"

    Don't know..Wasn't there. I have no evidence proving or disproving this statement.

    "No, I believe that Hapkido was consolidation of Korean Yawara practioners, large majority of them being aikido practioners. I think if I wait long enough this fact will be *revealed* like it did in TKD's case."

    And if you wait by the river long enough, the body of your enemy will float by. All roots in the HAPKIDO community lead back to GM Choi. Just deal with this. Let's keep things in perspective. We are talking about HKD. Not Yawara. Choi taught Yawara not what we see as modern HKD. Today's modern HKD was due to GM Ji's and other peoples in put. Not a bunch of Yawara or Aikido people. Go talk to GM Ji, or is his word not good enough for you either?

    "For what I have read so far in this forum, the last of Tae Kyon practioner was discovered only recently and Tae Kyon is, in fact, not an martial arts. So No."

    GM Ji is the one laying claim to studying Taekkyon under Taoist Lee and then implementing the kicks in HKD. Choi never taught the type of kicking that is done today. You are correct in saying that Taekkyon was never developed as a martial art. However, there are similarities in the kicking techniques between the two. Then again the same can be said for TKD and HKD. So when did the kicking come into play? The answer...from what I have heard, and read, GM Ji played a major roll in implementing the kicking into HKD. Now keep in mind that Karate at that time did not have a bunch of kicks. They mostly relied on very basic techniques. Even GM Lee Won-kuk of Chung Do Kwan said that they originally had just 4 kicking techniques. So where did these other kicks come from?

    I would like to learn more about GM Ji and his role in HKD because as it was stated, he had played a major role in developing and spreading the art.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


    SUPPORT BULLSHIDO!
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