230779 Bullies, 5569 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 81 to 90 of 100
Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 56789 10 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. ninjoo is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 12:38pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Actually has the majority of Hatsumi books are ghost written by american shihan, they range from inaccurate to down right wrong.


    Its also funny to diss Tanemura, then direct him to ninpo.org, Genbukan web site.
    I'm being careful not to disrespect Tanemura in the way we in the Bujinkan usual do. My only "dig" was that Tanemura claims or alludes to having a direct connection with Takamatsu, when he never did. Of course critics of the Takamatsu-den school are saying the lineage stops with Takamatsu, so whatever.

    Hatsumi's English books may have been ghost written but his Japanese books were not. I have them all, with translations of most of them. Sengaku Ninpo Zukan is probably the best history wise, but still everything is relative.

    Now the thing with ninpo.org being a Genbukan site - yeah. But besides being a student of Tanemura Roy Ron holds a Phd. which in the real world trumps ANY belt of rank in ANY martial arts school. I trust his Phd. more than I trust his teacher, and besides his articles are carefully unbiased and do not promote one teacher over another.

    I'm sick of this sectarian crap in martial arts. We end up acting like culties rather than Budoka much of the time. History is history, it either happened or it didn't, and it either was recorded or it wasn't. There are legitimate ways to study history, and ignorant ways.

    Choose your way.
  2. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 12:38pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, your assertion does not stand up to scrutiny.

    Tanemura's works aren't mysterious at all, either in Ninpo Secrets or the instructional materials he has published. There is a fair amount of historical information, some of which contains some humorous dismissals of people too interested in the obscure for the obscure's sake (the section on food and houses come to mind) but there is no attempt to pander to the whoo-whoo crowd.

    As far as who has been attracted to Tanemura I would say that yes, his approach did resonate with those who were dissatisfied with Hatsumi's Bujinkan, but not because it lacked enough ninja mystique. Rather the lack of clear teaching methods, a tendency towards additive distortiion of what Takamatsu had taught and what Hatsumi had been teaching up until the 1980s by the people Hatsumi was giving rank and authority to within the Bujinkan, and a desire for something that better fit their notions of what a martial art should be, for better or worse, had considerably more to do with it. On a simpler level Tanemura is a magnet for so-called Type A personalities who want structure, discipline and clarity in their learning.

    Draeger's books is a decent complilation of the common stories about the historic ninja and does a decent job of trying to bring some realism to the topic. Really it is an extended riff on the section on Ninjutsu in his Classical Bujutsu.

    I wouldn't necessarily call Skoss a snob, but in his own output he has certainly picked up some of the less favorable classist tendencies associated with Koryu practice and Japanese society generally. This is most apparent in the "subhuman" section of the posted article. It's no different, and as reprehensible, as those "Westerners' who adopt classist attitude towards "the Untouchables" simply because they've taken up the study of Vedanta or Yoga.

    As for "financial harm" when did that become an issue in this thread or are you just some sort of would be "fiscal superhero?" I haven't been following this thread in a while and do not remember the issue coming up and I do not feel like going back simply because of this necro-rebirth.
  3. ninjoo is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 12:46pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    I'm sorry, your assertion does not stand up to scrutiny.

    Tanemura's works aren't mysterious at all, either in Ninpo Secrets or the instructional materials he has published. There is a fair amount of historical information, some of which contains some humorous dismissals of people too interested in the obscure for the obscure's sake (the section on food and houses come to mind) but there is no attempt to pander to the whoo-whoo crowd.

    As far as who has been attracted to Tanemura I would say that yes, his approach did resonate with those who were dissatisfied with Hatsumi's Bujinkan, but not because it lacked enough ninja mystique. Rather the lack of clear teaching methods, a tendency towards additive distortiion of what Takamatsu had taught and what Hatsumi had been teaching up until the 1980s by the people Hatsumi was giving rank and authority to within the Bujinkan, and a desire for something that better fit their notions of what a martial art should be, for better or worse, had considerably more to do with it. On a simpler level Tanemura is a magnet for so-called Type A personalities who want structure, discipline and clarity in their learning.

    Draeger's books is a decent complilation of the common stories about the historic ninja and does a decent job of trying to bring some realism to the topic. Really it is an extended riff on the section on Ninjutsu in his Classical Bujutsu.

    I wouldn't necessarily call Skoss a snob, but in his own output he has certainly picked up some of the less favorable classist tendencies associated with Koryu practice and Japanese society generally. This is most apparent in the "subhuman" section of the posted article. It's no different, and as reprehensible, as those "Westerners' who adopt classist attitude towards "the Untouchables" simply because they've taken up the study of Vedanta or Yoga.

    As for "financial harm" when did that become an issue in this thread or are you just some sort of would be "fiscal superhero?" I haven't been following this thread in a while and do not remember the issue coming up and I do not feel like going back simply because of this necro-rebirth.
    First, the guy who posted regarding which book to buy was complaining that Turnbull's book was expensive, but yes, I am a fiscal superhero, elbeit an *evil* fiscal superhero. Thank you for noticing.

    But in general, where exactly are you disagreeing with me? You didn't like the term "mysterious" so replace it with something that works for you - how about "ninja-esque"?

    And I agree with your assessment of the Genbukan and the general types that gravitate towards - nearly 100%.

    I think maybe you just objected to my sarcastic tone? We pretty much agree on everything in this current topic. I think perhaps you just didn't like my writing style. Since this thread isn't regarding a complete assessment of the above topics, I didn't take the time to write in a more detailed fashion, but then you seem to have taken my reply out of context anyway.

    I do object to your opening statement "I'm sorry, your assertion does not stand up to scrutiny" as I think you made that statement without really reading what I wrote, since you really haven't debated anything I stated. You're just flinging rhetoric.
    Last edited by ninjoo; 10/11/2007 12:48pm at .
  4. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 12:49pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo
    I'm being careful not to disrespect Tanemura in the way we in the Bujinkan usual do. My only "dig" was that Tanemura claims or alludes to having a direct connection with Takamatsu, when he never did. Of course critics of the Takamatsu-den school are saying the lineage stops with Takamatsu, so whatever.
    Some of it also depends on how we're framing "direct connection."

    While Tanemura had only one weekend of direct training with Takamatsu shortly before his death he was a regular training partner for Hatsumi for the 15 years that Hatsumi was spending his weekends with Takamatsu and his weekdays trying to understand what Takamatsu had taught him. Additionally he had been in regular written and telephone correspondence with Takamatsu for much of those 15 years and was also a regular direct contact student of Akimoto Takamtsu until his death.

    After Takamatsu's death he continued to train, learn from and teach under Hatsumi until they had their parting of the ways. When this happened he intentionally sought out the surviving student's that Takamatsu had from previous generations to try and understand the other elements of Takamatsu's methods other then Hatsumi's interpretation of it.

    While it would not qualify someone as a "direct student" in the sense of having shared mat space with them regularly I would say it suggests a very strong respect for and desire to continue that which the head of the lineages had taught while he was alive.
  5. ninjoo is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 12:51pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Some of it also depends on how we're framing "direct connection."

    While Tanemura had only one weekend of direct training with Takamatsu shortly before his death he was a regular training partner for Hatsumi for the 15 years that Hatsumi was spending his weekends with Takamatsu and his weekdays trying to understand what Takamatsu had taught him. Additionally he had been in regular written and telephone correspondence with Takamatsu for much of those 15 years and was also a regular direct contact student of Akimoto Takamtsu until his death.

    After Takamatsu's death he continued to train, learn from and teach under Hatsumi until they had their parting of the ways. When this happened he intentionally sought out the surviving student's that Takamatsu had from previous generations to try and understand the other elements of Takamatsu's methods other then Hatsumi's interpretation of it.

    While it would not qualify someone as a "direct student" in the sense of having shared mat space with them regularly I would say it suggests a very strong respect for and desire to continue that which the head of the lineages had taught while he was alive.
    One weekend? Try one single meeting.

    This was not suppose to be a Bujinkan vs. Genbukan debate. Do you train in the Genbukan?
  6. ninjoo is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 1:01pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Some of it also depends on how we're framing "direct connection."

    While Tanemura had only one weekend of direct training with Takamatsu shortly before his death he was a regular training partner for Hatsumi for the 15 years that Hatsumi was spending his weekends with Takamatsu and his weekdays trying to understand what Takamatsu had taught him. Additionally he had been in regular written and telephone correspondence with Takamatsu for much of those 15 years and was also a regular direct contact student of Akimoto Takamtsu until his death.

    After Takamatsu's death he continued to train, learn from and teach under Hatsumi until they had their parting of the ways. When this happened he intentionally sought out the surviving student's that Takamatsu had from previous generations to try and understand the other elements of Takamatsu's methods other then Hatsumi's interpretation of it.

    While it would not qualify someone as a "direct student" in the sense of having shared mat space with them regularly I would say it suggests a very strong respect for and desire to continue that which the head of the lineages had taught while he was alive.
    Look, I've never heard this spin before, specifically the part about regular communication. I think someone, you or someone else, has made up more fake history to try and close the gap between Tanemura and Takamatsu sensei.

    Per my statement regarding cultism, here it is again. There's a spin for every cult.

    I personally don't believe it. Tanemura was Hatsumi's student. A student in Japan doesn't circumvent his teacher by communicating with histeacher's teacher - ever.

    Believe whatever you wish to believe if it makes you feel better. I own one book of Tanemura's, Ninpo Secrets, and while it's a fun book I was offended that the guy, after breaking with Hatsumi, ran over and buddied up with Takamatsu's wife. There's a word for that that starts with "W".

    BUT... in fact the Japanese notion of loyalty is completely unrealistic in today's world. Hatsumi Soke's senior students are in their 60's now and not allowed to freely teach. By American standards, that's assinine. If Tanemura wanted to leave Hatsumi, then he had every right. Besides, they are family which brings with it an entire different dimension.
  7. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 1:01pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo
    One weekend? Try one single meeting.

    This was not suppose to be a Bujinkan vs. Genbukan debate. Do you train in the Genbukan?
    Nope. My interest in the Takamatsuden groups is mostly Anthropological.
  8. Plasma is online now
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,099

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 1:47pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo
    I'm being careful not to disrespect Tanemura in the way we in the Bujinkan usual do. My only "dig" was that Tanemura claims or alludes to having a direct connection with Takamatsu, when he never did. Of course critics of the Takamatsu-den school are saying the lineage stops with Takamatsu, so whatever.
    Actually no. When I was genbukan Tanemura always mentioned getting his licenses through Sato Kinbei and referred to Takamatsu as his teacher's teacher.
  9. ninjoo is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    10/11/2007 2:07pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Plasma
    Actually no. When I was genbukan Tanemura always mentioned getting his licenses through Sato Kinbei and referred to Takamatsu as his teacher's teacher.
    Interesting to note.
  10. Metsudragon is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    STL, MO
    Posts
    167

    Posted On:
    10/12/2007 12:02am


     Style: Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ninjoo
    First, the guy who posted regarding which book to buy was complaining that Turnbull's book was expensive, but yes, I am a fiscal superhero, elbeit an *evil* fiscal superhero. Thank you for noticing.

    But in general, where exactly are you disagreeing with me? You didn't like the term "mysterious" so replace it with something that works for you - how about "ninja-esque"?

    And I agree with your assessment of the Genbukan and the general types that gravitate towards - nearly 100%.

    I think maybe you just objected to my sarcastic tone? We pretty much agree on everything in this current topic. I think perhaps you just didn't like my writing style. Since this thread isn't regarding a complete assessment of the above topics, I didn't take the time to write in a more detailed fashion, but then you seem to have taken my reply out of context anyway.

    I do object to your opening statement "I'm sorry, your assertion does not stand up to scrutiny" as I think you made that statement without really reading what I wrote, since you really haven't debated anything I stated. You're just flinging rhetoric.
    Let's get one thing straight here. I was taken aback by its prize as a lot of old books I've bought were cheap in price, I never said that was expensive, just unusual compared to old books I've bought. I work for my money just like you, and I can handle my own money matters, so no thanks mr.ninjer fiscal hero.

    2. I never said I was looking for "TEH REAL NINJOOTSU". I said I wanted to read up more on the actual historical lineages that DID exist(and I also noted, if you read my post more than 2 seconds, that I knew full well these techniques and lineages did not exist anymore). The reason for my post was that I wanted to know about the lineages, details, and prominent practicioners of these arts that have been verified to be legitimate.

    3. I didn't say Hatsumi's techniques themselves were bullshit until you attacked me with a TKD ninja school. What I meant by the "bullshit the booj was spouting" was the so called legitimate Ryuha he's claiming to teach, which were rejected by scholars when he tried to get them recognized as koryu. I have serious problems when the head of an organization is trying to pass off info that he doesn't have sufficient evidence to sustain as something legitimate(it's not enough the several clowns in bad bujinkan schools and horror stories of repute, but to have the head have some bs going on too?). If he was depicting his arts as his own brand of Budo Taijutsu and not legitimate ryuha with a defined lineage I'd have no problems accepting that.
Page 9 of 10 FirstFirst ... 56789 10 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.