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  1. soyez efficaces is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 10:31am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Ninjutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    like I said am not smart enough to debate this issue point for point and not trying to fuz the topic here but the most important questions for me include

    is this stuff effective? will it work for me ? can I apply it in a confrontation? am I happy with my training?

    if the answer is yes, will I stop if I find out its got no historical authenticity?
    Have met and trained with Hatsumi many times over the last 15 yrs and got say
    he is truly a great martial artist, bit more non traditional in some of his veiws on Budo organisation but I have had no reason to doubt the guy.

    sory for leading little off track here but hope you understand want I'm trying to say here.
  2. Mark2001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 4:01pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    The definition of ninjutsu is not in question here Mark. What is questioned is the claim that "ninjutsu" - especially Togakure ryu, dates back 3/4 of a millenia. It has nothing to do with people liking or not liking it, when you are going to claim something that bold there had better be some proof. Consider that the oldest extant martial ryu, Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto ryu is just over 500 years old. The oldest before that I know of were founded in the 1300's - and those ryu no longer exist. So to assert that you are teaching something even older than that - especially something based on subterfuge, assassination, intelligence and so on is a very big deal.

    The problem I find is that people only see what they want to see, especially in the Bujinkan. There are plenty of intelligent people there who seem to train hard in good schools (how common good schools are in the Buj I don't know), but for every one of them there are 50-100 people who have had all their fantasies fulfilled playing ninja. They look up to Hatsumi as some sort of mystical Yoda type figure who is not to be questioned in any negative way. Someone in another forum once said something along the lines of "If Hatsumi flopped it out in the middle of a taikai and took a wizz on the floor, some people say it was Zen because he needed to wizz, so he wizzed. Others would say that he did it to point out the sorry state of affairs in Buj in the other countries, and yet others would say it was a performance of ninja deception, a display of distraction so his partner could effectively infiltrate a castle while the samurai retainers gawked at him".

    The funny thing is, with everything I have seen of Buj practitioners on forums, I'd say it's pretty accurate. I would bet my right arm that if Hatsumi came out tomorrow and said it was all made up, half of his defenders would explain it away with something like "oh, he said that because the buj is growing too big and he wants it to stop expanding". The thing abut Hatsumi is that he has such a massive army of true believers that will jump to his defence with nothing better than hearsay, he never even needs to lift a finger or say a word to defend himself. The problem is, none of them have any education in history, so hearsay is always good enough to prove a lineage. For the rest of us, sorry, it isn't enough. Put it this way, if I was looking for a school to train at, and heard about this place that taught not 1 but 9, yes 9 ryu, that one of them was the oldest claimed ryu in existence, alarm bells would be going off in my head on a massive scale. Add to that the fact that there is no verifiable proof of 7 out of those 9, and you have Frank Dux material.
    "The problem is, except for a handful of koryu, where it's a part of a larger comprehensive curriculum, ninjutsu just doesn't exist anymore. thats what im responding to from that mail ive seen i dont give a crap about the 1300's thing, if it is then so be it, but you never know and we may never know. Anyways i dont realy care for the koryu they only know what the Samuri did, they dont even care for the ninja anyways, and i herd that from them my self
  3. Yamaarashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 6:15pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....
  4. Mark2001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 7:38pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....
    Ok let me get this straight im not Bjj ok. and there is no evidence from them, now show me proof if they did, i dont care to see e-mail nor do i care to just here them talk. That is no evidence
    so show me the real stuff.
  5. ninjoo is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 8:09pm


     Style: Bujinkan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    Mark, that is exactly why Hatsumi has such a large following of true believers. You are ignoring all the evidence, and passing off guys like Meik Skoss and Dr Karl Friday who actually do know what they are talking about because they are shattering your seemingly unshakeable faith in "ninjutsu". Soyez, I can understand your position because you are only about the fighting aspect. You are aware of its historically shaky ground, but Mark, dude, it seems to me you are just sticking your head in the sand and pretending none of this happened. If you want to do that, hey it's your life....
    Truthfully - if I wanted to be a martial arts historian, I'd hang with Friday or Skoss. I don't. I personally want to train, and Hatsumi Soke has the game in that area.

    Not sure why all the fuss still. Most of us have gotten over the "shaky ground" of our alledged history. That wasn't why many of us stuck with the Bujinkan in the first place.
  6. Yamaarashi is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 8:16pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting rebuttal Mark. I don't even need to cite Meik's or Dr Friday's work (although I will be happy to dig it up later if you like), I can show you all on my own.
    For starters, it is HATSUMI who is claiming Togakure ryu is some 750 years old, and that he teaches 9 different ryu. The onus is on HIM, or anyone who supports him to prove this fact. It is not my responsibility as the one asking the question to prove that he is lying.

    Now that we have that cleared up, let's begin shall we? These are the facts at hand:

    Hatsumi claims that Togakure ryu was founded sometime between 1200-1300AD. FACT
    Hatsumi has no scroll or verifiable records as proof of this. FACT

    Hatsum claims to teach 9 different ryu in Bujinkan, but he only has proof of 2. FACT

    Hatsumi sought to have his ryuha, including Togakure, recognised as koryu. He was dismissed because he did not possess reliable evidence. FACT

    This s commonly passed off by Buj forumites, who will assert to anyone that Hatsumi "didn't really try" or that "he invited them and they chose not to come". All such claims are FALSE.

    Hatsumi claims that his teacher, Takamatsu, learnt from an individual named Toda. Despite all efforts to the contrary, this man still has not been found to have existed. FACT.

    Had these facts been presented about any other typical caucasian "master" such as Frank Dux, he would become an absolute laughing stock. I don't know Hatsumi's fighting abilities nor do I care. Anyone on the internet will tell me how great he is, fine. If he is a great fighter, he should stand on his own merits. This whole silly ninja thing is ridiculous to anyone who has enough brains to examine the facts at hand. Here is a quote from the thread "Don't hate me because I studied Ninjutsu": take it all in and think about it, it's the best advice you could possibly hear, and it's from someone who DID "ninjutsu".

    Listen guys,

    Like I stated before, I studied Ninjutsu for a couple of years. And we studied pratical stuff. Stuff that I have carried over to Goju (I am a Goju n00b) and Army Combatives, and have carried over very succesfully.

    I think I had a better teacher than most of the people that I run into on this forum. Most of the Ninjutsu people I run into on this board appear to be deluded fantasy seekers stuck in the claimed historical past. My sensie never taught us the crap you self proclaimed ninjas are spouting, so I dont know where you get it. Also, it appears that most of the people here who study Ninjutsu have a chip on their shoulders, get over it!

    You dont hear the Kung Fu guys bitching about the history of Kung Fu. Do you?
    So why are you guys always getting into pissing contests about Ninjutsu?

    Damn, shut the f@ck up.

    A person who is confidnet in their skills and in themselfs dont need to brag and otherwise try to prove themself or their beliefs. They dont need to because they know in their hearts what and who they they are. Only people who are insecure need to prove things and polish their external image, because their internal image is jacked up.

    Like I said, I studied ninjutsu. However I dont need to constantly bring it up all the time like that jerk Ron Collins.

    Go ahead, look at my other posts. I am not always acting like some Ninja LARPing ass-monkey.

    Why do you guys always have to.

    Sh!t.
  7. Mark2001 is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 8:53pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    Interesting rebuttal Mark. I don't even need to cite Meik's or Dr Friday's work (although I will be happy to dig it up later if you like), I can show you all on my own.
    For starters, it is HATSUMI who is claiming Togakure ryu is some 750 years old, and that he teaches 9 different ryu. The onus is on HIM, or anyone who supports him to prove this fact. It is not my responsibility as the one asking the question to prove that he is lying.

    Now that we have that cleared up, let's begin shall we? These are the facts at hand:

    Hatsumi claims that Togakure ryu was founded sometime between 1200-1300AD. FACT
    Hatsumi has no scroll or verifiable records as proof of this. FACT

    Hatsum claims to teach 9 different ryu in Bujinkan, but he only has proof of 2. FACT

    Hatsumi sought to have his ryuha, including Togakure, recognised as koryu. He was dismissed because he did not possess reliable evidence. FACT

    This s commonly passed off by Buj forumites, who will assert to anyone that Hatsumi "didn't really try" or that "he invited them and they chose not to come". All such claims are FALSE.

    Hatsumi claims that his teacher, Takamatsu, learnt from an individual named Toda. Despite all efforts to the contrary, this man still has not been found to have existed. FACT.

    Had these facts been presented about any other typical caucasian "master" such as Frank Dux, he would become an absolute laughing stock. I don't know Hatsumi's fighting abilities nor do I care. Anyone on the internet will tell me how great he is, fine. If he is a great fighter, he should stand on his own merits. This whole silly ninja thing is ridiculous to anyone who has enough brains to examine the facts at hand. Here is a quote from the thread "Don't hate me because I studied Ninjutsu": take it all in and think about it, it's the best advice you could possibly hear, and it's from someone who DID "ninjutsu".

    Listen guys,

    Like I stated before, I studied Ninjutsu for a couple of years. And we studied pratical stuff. Stuff that I have carried over to Goju (I am a Goju n00b) and Army Combatives, and have carried over very succesfully.

    I think I had a better teacher than most of the people that I run into on this forum. Most of the Ninjutsu people I run into on this board appear to be deluded fantasy seekers stuck in the claimed historical past. My sensie never taught us the crap you self proclaimed ninjas are spouting, so I dont know where you get it. Also, it appears that most of the people here who study Ninjutsu have a chip on their shoulders, get over it!

    You dont hear the Kung Fu guys bitching about the history of Kung Fu. Do you?
    So why are you guys always getting into pissing contests about Ninjutsu?

    Damn, shut the f@ck up.

    A person who is confidnet in their skills and in themselfs dont need to brag and otherwise try to prove themself or their beliefs. They dont need to because they know in their hearts what and who they they are. Only people who are insecure need to prove things and polish their external image, because their internal image is jacked up.

    Like I said, I studied ninjutsu. However I dont need to constantly bring it up all the time like that jerk Ron Collins.

    Go ahead, look at my other posts. I am not always acting like some Ninja LARPing ass-monkey.

    Why do you guys always have to.

    Sh!t.
    ok that is not all facts by the way, Togakure scroll not sure on that, my brother seen them so that is not fact.and you talk about there is two that are legit no wrong there is 4, and about the koryu , Hatsumi has says he does not wont the scroll to be apart of koryu. And Toda Agreed fact, till the body be found and im sure it will. And keep this in mine the Ninja of that time, did keep things secret from the enemy. well anyways you still have any evidence, to show or what
    Last edited by Mark2001; 9/07/2007 8:59pm at .
  8. Mark2001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2007 9:06pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And i dont mean to be rude ether. I respect what your doing, its in my nature to not to agree. When people say that is not koryu it dosen't mean its not real.
  9. sojobow is offline

    Sojobow follows a PROVEN FRAUD

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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 6:21am


     Style: Dux Ryu Ninjitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    The definition of ninjutsu is not in question here Mark. What is questioned is the claim that "ninjutsu" - especially Togakure ryu, dates back 3/4 of a millenia.
    What I just don't understand is what is the penalty people want. The professors of Japan have shown that BBT is not Koryu. What penalty do you all want to extract from this little man in Japan. Can't see any way to put the poor guy in Jail. Can't see any way to cause him to lose students other than those he's lost due to all these terrible Shihans. Last thing I've read is that he's already has made an international exit by ordering all his Japanese teachers to no longer leave Japan and teach in Countries outside of Japan. If you want your 14th Dan, he'll mail it to you. If you all agree that BBT is Bullshido, then what? I'm seeing that the little man hasn't taught pure Ninjutsu for over 20 years to anyone. He's been teaching some type of Gendi forms. All (say it again) ALL of the Bujinkan I've met here in the US of A have long ago dropped the word Ninjutsu. Its the noobs that you're confusing until they get to their next class. Even those knuckleheads at Mythbusters regard Dale as a "Ninja." Can't dispute TV, can you? They will say that they don't study Ninjutsu. So, to them, Bullshido is screaming something they've, Hatsumi's older students, have long since dropped. I really don't think Hatsumi is listening anymore. Got his bank full and he's gone fellows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yamaarashi
    Add to that the fact that there is no verifiable proof of 7 out of those 9, and you have Frank Dux material.
    Your Honor, I object!!!!!! Leave Frank out of this conversation. He's a good guy :thebirdma :thebirdma . Actually, I'm holding $2.29 in my hand. Fact or Fiction.
    The art of subterfuge, deception, invisibility ---- all this and you guys really expect a student of Ninjitsu, like myself, to allow any of you to know the truth? Think on this: Everything I say is a Lie (something I learned from Hatsumi and he's my teacher).

    New here, but this Bullshido is kind of fun. Show me an 7-move unarmed technique and I can tell if its Ninjitsu or not. These guys here have more respect for Crocop and he can't fight a lick and you actually pay to see it. Poor little guy Hatsumi, in his old age, would cut Crocop in half - twice (using his Gendi Budo too). Learn to fight better.
  10. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/13/2007 8:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was going to argue with the above post but then I thought, stuff it, he does Dux Ryu Ninjitsu.
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