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  1. Bang! is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2007 6:44am

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Indeed. Within nine or ten rounds, the boxer will be yours. Oh yes, he will be yours.
  2. AlWest is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/12/2007 7:59am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lee
    one thing that makes me lean that way is his claims and his lineage claims . its indicative of people that are fakes . particularly his claim of being related to shaolin . thats a claim that is usually made by someone to show legitamicy. go back and read his claims more carefully , for instance which shaolin temple , zen is japanese not chinese, and a big one l have met reall masters in my time and they do not bragg about themselves. and l am not alone about this . l have given many reasons why and now l am off here. now do more home work before you believe claims.
    Zen is Chinese - "Chan" school Buddhism. It is believed to have developed from the debates between Daoist and Buddhist clergy and advocates in the Tang dynasty. In particular, some of the more abtruse writings in the Zhuangzi are believed to have inspired the Chan school, and the word "koan", is Chinese "kong an."
    Anyway, I think it is safe to agree that a lot of what WKK is at least a little bit silly. If you add it all up - the teaching that boxers suffer more in long bouts than gongfu stylists, that the man thinks he can manipulate the weather, that he truly believes in the Southern Shaolin and Wudang myths, that the patterns of what he teaches are all essentially the same ("black tiger steals heart", "golden leopard speeds through jungle" - same thing really), that the internal force stuff is described almost solely in terms of qi, that his students have an almost slavish devotion to him, that he believes the martial arts were developed for the purposes of enlightenment and not genuinely for fighting, that he believes his art to be the greatest system in the world (and tries to prove it by saying it has more stuff than anything else!), that he has a fabricated martial genealogy, that he has quite a horrifically new-age approach to fighting and life, that he actually tries to convert readers to Buddhism in his books ("you'll get to Heaven more easily, because Buddhism has 23 Heavens", or something like that), that he advocates poor fighting strategy.... etcetera, etcetera - it's a bit of a joke, and a fairly commercial one, too. He has a massive number of students who flock to Malaysia for short courses at high prices, he has written lots and lots of books, which are omnipresent in the martial arts shelves of most high street bookshops - he must be fairly rich, especially considering he lives in Malaysia, which does not have an especially high cost of living. Looking at it like that, the only thing that comes to mind is that it is a scam, and it could be one that the scammer himself believes in and goes along with. Wong Kiew Kit seems like an example of old school Bullshido, which is a shame, because he is probably quite a nice bloke, and his books are well written.
  3. Hungsing is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2007 9:15pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    b.) There is no "Shaolin" art. The Buddhist temples of old were social welfare institutions that often took in maginalized people including bandits, the disenfranchized, poor and stigmatized. There were practices to help provide for internal security, protection from bandits, and to keep slaves and the lay population in line. The idea of a "style of Boxing" is a fabrication stemming from poetry and opera classics of the 18th century (See: Stanley Hennings).
    As far as I know, there is not one style of boxing from shaolin, exept the modern things they do at the shaolin school. On the other hand, a lot of styles claim at least a connection to the Shaolin temple in Henan and pictures in the temple show monks sparring or doing something very similar. Also there is a room with a lot of cavities on the floor which coincidentally come in pairs separated by what one may call the average length of a horse stance. Also, as the temple was destroyed and rebuilt a lot of times (including a bombing back in the nationalist-communist war in China after the japanese ocupation), most of the records of what happened there were destroyed. On the other hand it is widely known that there were a lot of fighting styles before the temple and that people make a habit of naming famous people as the inventors of what they actually invented. My theory, or the theory that I think is the most probable, is that a lot of styles were perfected (made better, cleaned up or waxed, I can't find the right term) inside the temple and probably a couple might even have their origins in the minds of some of the monks. My point is, there is no actual proof that martial arts were taught at the temple, but also there is so much mention of it that you can't just discard the idea as bogus. Most legends have at least a bit of truth in them.

    As of the thread's topic, I checked out a couple of WWK's books at a bookstore once. Personally, I only buy a martial arts book for the history, folk tales and maybe a bit of theory related to the style. You can't learn fighting moves (or any kind of move) from drawings. WWK's books contain nice stories and stuff, but if he says he parted the clouds with his chi, he's a big fat liar. Even if someone else publicly says so and he doesn't deny it he's not serious.
    Last edited by Hungsing; 4/26/2007 9:05am at .
  4. Boyd is offline
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    OFFICIAL Mayor of Cwcville

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2007 10:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hui_Xiu
    So what is needed to judge if a teacher is legitimate?
    Just as a reminder, kids, the best way to determine the legitimacy of a teacher is if he and his students can use the martial arts techniques he espouses to beat you up. No need to unroll the butcher paper.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  5. Scott Larson is offline
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    Gold Summit Martial Arts Institute

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    Posted On:
    4/26/2007 11:33am


     Style: Ba Zheng Dao Quan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    Just as a reminder, kids, the best way to determine the legitimacy of a teacher is if he and his students can use the martial arts techniques he espouses to beat you up. No need to unroll the butcher paper.
    So you are saying a teacher needs to fight anyone that challenges them?
  6. Guizzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2007 9:03am


     Style: Baihequan, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    Just as a reminder, kids, the best way to determine the legitimacy of a teacher is if he and his students can use the martial arts techniques he espouses to beat you up. No need to unroll the butcher paper.
    When I'm looking for someone to teach me martial art, I'd definitely prefer to train with someone who doesn't lie to me about where he got that training from. Because I think honesty is a very important quality for someone I'll need to trust with hitting / having someone hit me.

    And if we go by your standards, the bujinkan is totally legit, right? Because yes, Hatsumi also trained (and I think he's even lineage holder ) in other verifiably legitimate ryu, and is also supposed to be a mean Judoka. Him being able to beat up many people does not make him any more of a ninja.
    Last edited by Guizzy; 4/27/2007 11:01am at .
  7. Boyd is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2007 12:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Electricity, Speed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That you misread my post wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't two sentences long. What I'm saying is if we entered some nightmarish, American McGee alternate reality where Hatsumi and his students could honestly kick your ass entirely with bicep strikes and purple nurples, then yes, the Bujinkan would be legit.

    My point is that CMA and, to a much lesser extent, JMA circles seem to have some sort of academic hardon for family trees and lineages, the emphasis of which perpetuates fraud much more readily than if they had an equally rigid boner for, say, fighting capacity.

    Actually, I have no idea what you're trying to argue since in the scenario you posed, you both have a teacher with a legitimate lineage AND who can beat up most people.
    Captain's Log: Just a little update for all my TRUE and HONEST friends out there:

    1) I am STRAIGHT! I am STRAIGHT! Get it through your thick skulls, numbskulls!

    2) My name is not Ian Brandon Something.

    3) Kacey is coming with me now. I have stolen her from the other Christian Weston Chandler.

    REMINDER: I am still the one and only true creator of sonichu and rosechu electric hedgehog pokemon
  8. Guizzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/27/2007 12:25pm


     Style: Baihequan, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    That you misread my post wouldn't bother me so much if it weren't two sentences long. What I'm saying is if we entered some nightmarish, American McGee alternate reality where Hatsumi and his students could honestly kick your ass entirely with bicep strikes and purple nurples, then yes, the Bujinkan would be legit.

    My point is that CMA and, to a much lesser extent, JMA circles seem to have some sort of academic hardon for family trees and lineages, the emphasis of which perpetuates fraud much more readily than if they had an equally rigid boner for, say, fighting capacity.

    Actually, I have no idea what you're trying to argue since in the scenario you posed, you both have a teacher with a legitimate lineage AND who can beat up most people.
    Yes, but we're not arguing that lineage is the most important thing evah.

    We're simply saying that if a school claims to be historical, lineage IS important when evaluating a school's worth.

    Personally, I don't care if my lineage goes back 400 years or 80 years. As long as MY teacher isn't lying to me about where HE got his training, I'm okay with his lineage. As long as he and his students ARE able to beat most people.
    Last edited by Guizzy; 4/27/2007 12:27pm at .
  9. BaguaMonk is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 5:53pm


     Style: Alien Cosmic Chi Quan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No I cannot recommend, sorry.

    I disagreed with them on alot of things on their forums, and they dedicated entire pages, even topics full of why I was so "ignorant." Asserting chi this, chi that, dispersing clouds with chi, master can kill with a light touch, etc.
  10. LowwerWay is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/27/2007 9:40pm


     Style: ex-KF, now Judoka + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Boyd
    My point is that CMA and, to a much lesser extent, JMA circles seem to have some sort of academic hardon for family trees and lineages, the emphasis of which perpetuates fraud much more readily than if they had an equally rigid boner for, say, fighting capacity.

    Close. It's not academic, it is cultural. And some, do have that second part that you describe in a vulgar, yet quasi-humorous manner.
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