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  1. EricH is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 11:14am


     Style: systema/RMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    Oh I can't wait for the Systema Camp to come and check this out .

    This member of the systema camp is burned out on these threads. I continue to happily train systema and get a lot out of it. You guys can continue your faith based hysterics if it makes you happy.

    Systema is quite a different approach to MA, but imo it is well worth checking out.
    Last edited by EricH; 3/09/2007 11:20am at .
  2. King of Nigeria is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 11:52am


     Style: Wrestling/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To answer some questions...

    How did I find Bullshido? I came here because a fellow Systema practioner at the time (JellyMan) suggested I check out the "fight" here. Of course I came ready to defend my art, but when I saw the good points the people here were making, I decided I needed to be a little bit more open minded.

    I'm now training a bit more rounded, at a place called Salvosa Brazilian Jujitsu in Scarborough Ontario. Wrestling, BJJ, Boxing is what I train there.
    The thing about Systema people is how close-minded they are. Many of them completely discounted the merits of strength training with weights, saying it was unnatural. To someone who holds a degree in kinesiology like myself, this was insulting and stupid.

    On Moscow: No, I've never been to Moscow or the summer camps, due to the came costing somewhere in the region of $1500. From what I heard though, many of my fellow practioners did not enjoy their time at the summercamp or the Spring training last year, although from what I've seen of videos of the events they looked like a lot of fun.

    They played a lot of games like blind-folded tag in the woods, man hunt, and lots of survival training stuff. Whatever your or mine opinion of Systema is, I would have enjoyed going if not for the price.

    I assure you I am the real thing and not a troll. If some people want proof I can name most of the top students at Club Vlad, but of course I will not give my own name out since I do not want to burn any bridges.

    You guys can continue your faith based hysterics if it makes you happy.

    Systema is quite a different approach to MA, but imo it is well worth checking out.
    With all due respect, this is not Faith-based. If you read my first post you would have noticed I trained under Vlad for 3 years. I feel this gives me at least some right to speak about what I saw.

    The reason people take to Systema is because of the false hope it gives them. You don't need to get into shape, there's no risk of injury due to very little physical exertion being put in, and with a willing opponent it can make you feel invincible that you can take down a much larger opponent. These are all illusions that I thought were truth. Imagine my face when a 16 year-old 120 lbs Chinese kid tapped me in 14 seconds my first BJJ class.
    Last edited by King of Nigeria; 3/09/2007 11:59am at .
  3. Hanniballistic is offline
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    By the Hoary Hand of Hoggoth.....

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 12:09pm


     Style: JKD & Mok'bara

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EricH
    This member of the systema camp is burned out on these threads. I continue to happily train systema and get a lot out of it. You guys can continue your faith based hysterics if it makes you happy.

    Systema is quite a different approach to MA, but imo it is well worth checking out.
    Yet you can nothing to refute the criticism levelled at it by people on these boards - including a three year practitioner who has recently "converted" (for want of a better phrase).

    You say "well worth checking out" but offer nothing to validate that on here or in any of teh other posts on these hallowed boards. On the other hand you also meet us with silence when negatives are raised (including the "Tanswell Incident" where a systema practitioner would have been the main course on a carvery if it was real).

    Systema rhetoric is old and tired now - you cannot back your claims yet do not want to abandon waht has been a futile quest for combat training.

    If you want to do what you are doing because you enjoy it then more power to you - I am happy for you. But if you are trying to present it as a legitimate H2H combat system you are wrong, wrog and wrong again - it isn't.

    King of Nigeria - nice opening posts and welcome to bullshido
  4. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 12:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nigeria
    The reason people take to Systema is because of the false hope it gives them. You don't need to get into shape, there's no risk of injury due to very little physical exertion being put in, and with a willing opponent it can make you feel invincible that you can take down a much larger opponent. These are all illusions that I thought were truth. Imagine my face when a 16 year-old 120 lbs Chinese kid tapped me in 14 seconds my first BJJ class.
    That usually seems to be the case with a lot of those types of martial arts similar to Systema. The ones with little contact, very little in the way pf physical exertion, the feeling that you can take down someone much larger and stronger then you without the training required.

    Yeah, you learn a lot when somone younger and lighter gives you a one way trip to submission hell. That's one of the things I liked about BJJ.
  5. WingChun Lawyer is offline
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    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 12:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Damn, this reminded me of what I felt when I left WC in favour of MT. Schooled by a guy with six months of MT under his belt, I was, and I had two years of WC "training".

    Welcome to bullshido King of Nigeria.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  6. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 1:06pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    King of Nigeria,
    Did you encounter any kind of religion being pushed? Did you ever get pressured to convert to Russian Orthodox? Do these rumors about ROC conversions have any basis in reality?
  7. Kungfoolss is offline

    I restore the Balance

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 1:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: I wear pants

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nigeria
    I'll start this post off by listing my martial arts history prior to beginning Systema.

    I had a year worth of experience in Chinese wrestling, but wanted a more "complete" System. Not knowing the merits of cross-training, I simply wanted to find an all-in-one, which is what led me to find Systema in the Martial Arts section of the local yellow pages.

    When I saw the ad for Systema I thought "fantastic!". A history of special forces use, no katas, no gis, no rituals or archaic principles that would hinder my combat training. I checked out the website, saw some of the clips and was once again very impressed by what I saw. I paid over $200 for a "foundations" package from the website and couldn't wait to start.

    I started my first class right at the mecca of Systema, the club of Vladimir Vasiliev. I was immediately paired up with people who were considered to be the more seasoned practioners, and of course I was quickly subdued in all of my attacks. The principles of this system seemd to me to be solid. Movement and exploitation of your partner's very exagerated movements.

    Over the new two years I was thrilled at my progress. I was taking people down with ease and using my own "intuition" was able to submit most people on the ground, as well as effectively strike people while standing up.

    The one common theme I noticed in all my years of systema was that the top students always have years of other training behind them. The top student at Club Vlad is a rather large fellow who was a national wrestling champion in his home country, as well as a ranked boxer. Someone like myself, having only trained in Systema at this point in the story could never hope to out-wrestle or out-strike this man.

    All of my fellow students, as well as myself, were routinely brainwashed by each other into adopting this sort of "do without effort" method of training, in that we would be so relaxed and so free-flowing that anyone who applied any strength or effort would immediately move us. This was however a good thing in systema, as the idea was that you can then work with this person's aggression to dispatch them.

    The explainations of how exactly to fight were not very educational. The instructor (Vlad) would explain some obscure principal and then the demonstrate 30 different takedowns and defences he could perform against his unrealistic, although fast-moving opponent. For a student like myself who was almsot completely green to fighting, this was not useful at all as it simply made me rely on my own wrong perceptions of the right thing to do in a situation. I developed incredibly bad habits but at the same time felt invincible because I could easily beat most people at the club.

    We were never taught ANY techniques at all. Not a single time in my 3 years was I instructed on how to do something properly, like a choke or a double-leg. I was so insulated in the group-think cult-like mentality of most systema practitioners that I convinced myself I didn't need technique.

    The physical aspect was laughable. most of the people at the club were 40, overweight and in bad shape. They didn't understand the benefits of weight-training, cardiovascular exercise, or even things like shadow boxing. We were constantly told about breathing, and very vague and downright confusing explanations were given to us. I was always told the essence of my breath would deliver power to my punches, however when I tried to apply this in real life to a seasoned striker, it didn't do anything. not to mention the simply ridiculous ways that we were told to punch, namely rotating the body and keeping the arm still, etc.

    When my friend offered to take me to his BJJ and boxing school I was thrilled to be finally able to use my Systema on some people who were trained. I went in and received the biggest ass-kicking I have ever felt. I was getting tapped in seconds, was unable to bring anybody to the ground, and during the striking portion of the class I was outmoved and out powered. Simply put... I sucked.

    A top student at Vladimir's school, with 3 years of Systema training. I was incredibly angry at the fact that I wasted 3 years of productive training time. The very next day I enrolled in the school and have been attending for the past 2 months. In these two months I have learned so much more than in my three years with Systema.

    In summary... Systema on its own is a joke. The Principles can be applied by someone who has training in other forms of combat, but on its own, it is worthless. Let this be a final nail in the coffin to the already dying debate on Systema. I seasoned student of Vladimir himself has come out to share his experience, so I hope I am seen by Systema apologists as credible.

    Feel free to ask me any questions you might have about the system, the teachers, students, etc.
    See, that's what you get for not being a member of Bullshido 3-years ago, we could've saved you a lot of wasted time. It does not surprise me this is the ultimate outcome, thankfully you were able divest yourself of this cult mentality. Unfortunately, you will see others cultists here still advocating the same mantra, "If you doubt the validity of systema go train with Vlad or the fat russian hog." or "Don't judge systema by the some obscure video clip, you're not getting the whole picture.". Needless to say, these people are hopeless.
    Kungfoolss, Scourge of the theory-based stylists, Most Feared man at Bullshido.com, and the Preeminent Force in the martial arts political arena
  8. tiktok is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 1:18pm


     Style: Bok Fu Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    King of Nigeria, thanks very much for your post. Firsthand information such as you posted is always much more valuable than conjecture and poorly backed-up arguments such as we've seen in so many Systema threads. And yes, after 3 years of training there I'd say you have a good amount of knowledge on the topic and a good basis for perspective. It sounds like you made a very fortunate move in switching schools and arts, and I wish you luck.
  9. King of Nigeria is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 1:58pm


     Style: Wrestling/Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you again for the kind words. I have to say, when i first came to Bullshido a few months ago I was so shocked that people could be questioning Systema. "Don't these idiots know it was used by Special Forces?" I thought to myself. Man, is it ever embarassing to admit you've been duped.

    Not everything in Systema is a joke, however. The principles are good and like I said can be applied by someone who has a lot of experience in other arts, namely BJJ or wrestling. However one does not need to take classes in Systema to apply the principles of breathing, movement, and experimentation with takedowns/submissions etc.

    King of Nigeria,
    Did you encounter any kind of religion being pushed? Did you ever get pressured to convert to Russian Orthodox? Do these rumors about ROC conversions have any basis in reality?
    The presence of ROC in Systema is very strong in the Moscow connection, namely through Mikhail. Vlad has attempted to leave out these elements in day to day classes as to accomodate the diverse group of students here in Toronto.

    It was never pushed on me by the instructors, however many students have converted in an attempt to get closer to Vlad and some sort of "secret" knowledge, which is a ridiculous reason to change religions. Systema, much like any other centralized martial arts system, is full of sycophants.

    The only time I was really exposed to any talk of God or ROC is when I would speak with Vlad after class and ask him for help with taking punches, or pain, or something like that. His answer was always "pray, be humble, and ask god for mercy". Althought I didn't like his answer, it was me who asked him a question, he didn't force anything on me.

    Like I said, keep the questions coming, hopefully this thread can turn into a good resource for the forum.
    Last edited by King of Nigeria; 3/09/2007 2:02pm at .
  10. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 2:08pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by King of Nigeria
    It was never pushed on me by the instructors, however many students have converted in an attempt to get closer to Vlad and some sort of "secret" knowledge, which is a ridiculous reason to change religions. Systema, much like any other centralized martial arts system, is full of sycophants.

    .
    Totally ridiculous.

    Did you or anyone else ever have to recite "Lord Jesus have mercy" while doing pressups or other exercises?

    And did you ever hear about or experience an exercise where you walk up and down the floor while tracing out a "Jesus Prayer" with your footwork?

    thanks again for coming here and sharing the truth with us. Finally someone who DOES have real experience and cannot be dismissed as someone who "Doesn't know the real Systems."
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