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  1. Rooster is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2008 7:57pm


     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand
    About Bullshidoka argument #1), one question:

    What if somebody gets labelled BS, but invites face-to-face challenges in response...or says he'll back up any claims at the next-and-nearest TD?

    Just curious...
    Well that's excellent. We'll be sure to give his proof some air-time on one of the top mma websites in the video section.
  2. 3moose1 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/20/2008 8:43pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: MCMAP, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Bullshidoka Argument #4 - Claims that the investigation has gone beyond its original purpose. For example, a man who claims an impressive but unverified tournament record is also found to have claimed military or law enforcement experience, but the subject or his supporters get upset because that wasn't the original point of the investigation.
    If the cops are searching your house for a murder weapon, and they come across a kilo of smack, they aren't going to ignore it...
  3. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2008 11:30pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bullshido Argument #21 - Questioner has not "earned the right" to obtain answers to investigative questions. Refusal to answer is framed within an environment where only those who have dedicated time in study under the person being questioned have the right to answers.

    Counter: By obtaining a business license to teach publically, the teacher by virtue of the decision to teach in a public facility is subject to BBB (Better Business Bureau) types of questions and answers. Consumers have the right to question background, credentials, quality of experience, records, and anything else that pertains to the quality of the instruction offered. If the teaching includes children the right to a background check is also advisable - they do that for public schools and still have problems.
  4. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/20/2008 11:34pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bullshido Argument #22 - Questionee has immunity from accusations by virtue of membership in a national body of some form of conglomerate martial artists.

    Counter: Martial arts governing bodies are as common as denominational religions and hold no authority as it pertains to quality. Many are "pay to play" organizations that give glowing recommendations in exchange for annual fees. Repeat same line of questioning all the way up the chain to the head of the organization, and disclose any fees paid that could cloud quality judgements.
  5. Rancid Pantaloons is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/25/2008 10:54am


     Style: unemployed

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    would language functions be useful?

    -informative (the post is meant as information)
    -appellative (the post is suppose too appeal to the reader feelings)
    -expressive (used too express felling about a subject)
    -the story teller (example: http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=67726)
    -the contact function (how are u doing?)
    -the meta function (meta is here used as seen from above, what is actually going on)

    I realize that this ain't arguments and therefor don't match this thread so well, but maybe this kind of stuff can be used too identify trolls before they do any damage?
  6. Vieux Normand is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/23/2008 11:33am

    Join us... or die
     Style: 血鷲

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's one that might apply to a BSD practitioner, but not necessarily to anyone claiming to teach. This BSDka isn't defending his or her own ability so much as defending the supremacy of whatever they practise:

    "Yes, the art I practice is the best...I just got my ass kicked because I have yet to master it well enough. If I had timed my front-stance solar-plexus-aimed lunge-punch better and multiplied my power by yelling 'kiai', then I would have finished that submission wrestler in one shot before he got a hold of me."

    The trouble with this argument, of course, is that it is endlessly recyclable: no matter how many times this person gets pounded, he or she can cling to the "I'm-not-good-enough-to-put-the-theory-into-practice-YET-and-that's-why-I-lost" argument. Some people could very well go to their graves believing it, and it doesn't appear amenable to rebuttal, no matter how logical.
  7. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2008 6:17pm


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chingythingy
    Bullshido Argument #22 - Questionee has immunity from accusations by virtue of membership in a national body of some form of conglomerate martial artists.

    Counter: Martial arts governing bodies are as common as denominational religions and hold no authority as it pertains to quality. Many are "pay to play" organizations that give glowing recommendations in exchange for annual fees. Repeat same line of questioning all the way up the chain to the head of the organization, and disclose any fees paid that could cloud quality judgements.
    Interesting point. For the UK, in my experience of Trad JJ, the British Ju Jitsu Association Governing Body, does seem to go some way towards establishing a confidence in its instructors. By this I mean that each potential Dan Grading is done in a prescribed manner and under senior instructors. The examiners will be at least 2 Dan Grades above the student.

    4th Dan and 5th Dan are by invitation only.

    Each Dan Grade is registered by the BJJA GB so a record of training is maintained. To teach, each student must attend a training course and this will be specified from level 1 to level 4. These are taken under Sensei Terry Parker, 9th Dan, and assisted by Sensei James Pape, 8th Dan. This requires each student to take a series of subjects and write a single page essay. These are read by Sensei Parker and kept for a period of time. He says he needs to see how students think and of course, he's also looking for potential nutters. BTW, he used to sit and talk to us for 2 days and you would drink in his experience but the revised process is more professional and calls for some study before you produce those esays (I had to write 11 for my level. OTOH, I learned quite a bit).

    Additionally, each instructor has to attend a First Aid course and provide a valid certificate.
    Also, instructors as specified by the BJJA GB require a Criminal Records Bureau check to Enhanced level. This is motivated by concern for children and vulnerable adults. Over and above this, is the requirement for each instructor to seek membership of Sports Coach UK and this also requires a fee and provides for individual personal insurance against any student claim for injury.

    First Aid, Instructors Teaching certs etc are all time sensitive and must be renewed at specified intervals. This goes some way to averting complacency and keeps instructors under notice.

    Of course, over time, everyone knows everyone else so you become a known quantity. Hopefully this will keep you on the straight and narrow....

    There are other hoops to jump through before you can be an instructor but hopefully you will get the idea. Moreover, our association is part of Sport England and a colleague from a dissimilar MA is learning how difficult it is to get Accreditation. She marvelled that our Org is affiliated to Sport England.

    I can't speak for Karate but I read the incredible mis-management of the newly founded "Karate England" and am thankful I didn't have that experience.

    I have been told by a very senior JJ instructor of nascent organisations forming their own organisations and upgrading themselves by a couple of Dan grades. Now, that's a worry....

    Hope this helps.
  8. JanusMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/24/2008 4:15pm


     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vieux Normand
    Here's one that might apply to a BSD practitioner, but not necessarily to anyone claiming to teach. This BSDka isn't defending his or her own ability so much as defending the supremacy of whatever they practise:

    "Yes, the art I practice is the best...I just got my ass kicked because I have yet to master it well enough. If I had timed my front-stance solar-plexus-aimed lunge-punch better and multiplied my power by yelling 'kiai', then I would have finished that submission wrestler in one shot before he got a hold of me."

    The trouble with this argument, of course, is that it is endlessly recyclable: no matter how many times this person gets pounded, he or she can cling to the "I'm-not-good-enough-to-put-the-theory-into-practice-YET-and-that's-why-I-lost" argument. Some people could very well go to their graves believing it, and it doesn't appear amenable to rebuttal, no matter how logical.
    I think this type of argument can only be solved one way, which is to find at least one person who can successfully use the art barring special circumstances. I can see someone in Muay Thai or BJJ getting beat by a wrestler or karate guy and the latter then trashing the art itself.
  9. Kuma is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2008 6:49am


     Style: blunt trauma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This one is regarding experience and credentials, and I'm not quite sure how to word it, but I've been watching the Jim Wagner thread with great interest and noted one or two arguments the have the stink of Bullshido on them. Bear with me while I try to put them into words, one of you can probably do it better.

    In this post JBDzn quotes the man as saying the following:
    I understand your concerns. I would not want your school tainted by my "background." Therefore, I will cancel our course together in December.
    Seems a bit off. I think this could become a standard BS practice, something like "I am a man of honor, and rather than defend my puffed-up credentials I'll just bow out entirely and while implying that you've insulted me by having the balls to question me." I suppose the counter would lie somewhere along the lines of "Men who actually have credentials are not ashamed nor hesitant to produce them, and should relish the opportunity to prove what they claim."

    I suppose in that vein it resembles BSDK argument #3, only with a touch of well-played lawyer-fed martyrdom thrown in.

    What makes it interesting in this particular case is the veiled threat of litigation implied by the follow-up:
    I don't mind giving people my background, which I expanded slightly on my own website, but I will not answer direct questions from a liar who libels my name on the World Wide Web. If you cannot see through the tactics of my competitors then it will be impossible to ever have trust between us.
    While he very careful to avoid coming out and saying he's going to sue somebody, I think the new element here is the manner of his bowing out of the argument: Essentially, he says that if you question him, you don't trust him, and if you don't trust him, he can't train you, and if he can't train you, he has no time for you. (He has other paying seminars, you know. Plus a regular column to write, where he plugs products as often as he offers advice.)

    Might the "Trust" issue qualify as another BSDK argument, or would it still be lumped under #3?
  10. Eddie Hardon is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/08/2008 8:33am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Minor point.
    Each member of our Org carries a Budo Pass. This lists the membership of the club, the org, and by implication the BJJA GB. It provides for the history of the student and and records his progression through Kyu-Dan Grades and the dates with authenticating stamp. Additionally, it will list: Instructor Grade; First Aid; Competition Official; Kobudo (Weapons) Level.

    There is also a section for SEMINARS which record the type, Instructor, Date, Location and authenticating stamp.

    It also has a Competition Section as well in which achievements can be recorded. Sadly, not mine, I've never won higher than Silver (edit - just remembered I once bettered Bronze)

    An Instructor's Budo Pass should always be available for inspection hence when I ran a club in a couple of venues (both failed for want of students and I ended up about 800 out of pocket) I offered it for view.

    No respectable instructor should object and it helps to verify his or her status.

    Hope this helps.
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