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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 9:24am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    Initially, I would agree with your assessment. However, with further thought and analysis of my MA education, and in the spirit of debate, I would suggest that Dim Mak does not necessarily have to be bullshido, but often is.

    Good Dim Mak as I have understood it is the application of Iron Hand techniques along with poisons (powders and liquids of various forms) such that when you strike an opponent in certain locations, the skin is appreciably punctured and the poison is administered.
    Well, I'd have to disagree with you here and say this is a mixture of information.

    What you described sounds like Poison Hand training which is different than Dim Mak.

    I also agree with your assessment Southpaw but, disagree with the method. I'd still catergorize that example with pressure points not Dim Mak. Weaker areas in the body that cause pain.

    I got to find those posts. My position is a little to vague. I agree you can die from temple strikes, a perfectly timed strike to the chest (baseball again) etc.

    Still, Dim Mak is a set of techniques that require activation of certain points on the body, at times of the day, to induced delayed reactions including death.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 3/07/2007 9:34am at .
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 9:33am

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    Oh and thanks SifuJason.

    That brought us right into my next point. Poison Hand. I would love to find any books or research in this area. I would love to know how much this attributed to Dim Mak. Once I stopped believing in the bullshido aspect of Dim Mak I started looking for info.

    What I alway seemed to come across was IP+PH= Dim Mak. I was told by my old GM that, IP was used to toughen the hands to protect against the more caustic poison. The practitioners of poison hand supposedly ingested small amounts of poison to build up tolerance. They also kept their fingernails relatively sharp for scratching and piercing.

    Hence the delayed reaction and the possible birth of Dim Mak. Purely conjecture on my part of course but, it seems plausible to me.
  3. SpringHeeledJack is offline
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    Diabolical Physiognomy

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 9:41am


     Style: Boxing; Sub. Grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    I got to find those posts.
    If it helps you find what you want, and if I remember correctly, I was involved in one of these disussions with you and someone else. We hit on all these things being discussed. I tried to figure out which thread it was, but failed. I, for the life of me, can't remember which thread it was in.

    [Edit-Looking back on this post, I now see that it provides absolutely no help. Sorry]


    Now lovely Lucifer, in hell so stark
    King, and lord of sin and pride
    With some mist his wits make dark.
    He send thee grace to be thy guide


    HE LOOKS LIKE A TINY BEAR MIXED WITH A CAT, AND THAT IS THE MEANEST ANIMAL MIXTURE EVER, BEAR FOR FUCKING STRENGTH, AND CAT FOR FUCKING MEAN!!! ************.

  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 9:43am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by debul937
    If it helps you find what you want, and if I remember correctly, I was involved in one of these disussions with you and someone else. We hit on all these things being discussed. I tried to figure out which thread it was, but failed. I, for the life of me, can't remember which thread it was in.

    [Edit-Looking back on this post, I now see that it provides absolutely no help. Sorry]
    No worries I think it was a medium mike thread. I'm looking as we speak.
  5. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 10:36am


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Oh and thanks SifuJason.

    That brought us right into my next point. Poison Hand. I would love to find any books or research in this area. I would love to know how much this attributed to Dim Mak. Once I stopped believing in the bullshido aspect of Dim Mak I started looking for info.

    What I alway seemed to come across was IP+PH= Dim Mak. I was told by my old GM that, IP was used to toughen the hands to protect against the more caustic poison. The practitioners of poison hand supposedly ingested small amounts of poison to build up tolerance. They also kept their fingernails relatively sharp for scratching and piercing.

    Hence the delayed reaction and the possible birth of Dim Mak. Purely conjecture on my part of course but, it seems plausible to me.
    Your welcome.

    I agree that what I was describing earlier is indeed poison hand; although like you said, once you get passed the bullshido of Dim Mak what seems to be left is IP + PH. My GM has also described Dim Mak to me this way.

    Your initial conjecture does seem correct, that the application of poison could be the source of the delayed-kill myth, but I think it will be hard to sort out. Another source of the myth could be the application of strikes that cause slow internal bleeding, resulting in a delayed death.
  6. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 12:14pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Still, Dim Mak is a set of techniques that require activation of certain points on the body, at times of the day, to induced delayed reactions including death.
    I've been meaning to look a bit more closely into the Chinese "Dim Mak" material to see if there is a corrolation between known anatomical points of weakness, etc. If anyone has any decent traditional sources on the topic I'd be interested in reading anything you have.

    I can't speak to all Dim mak points but a fair number of the cranial points that I've seen coincide with skeletal suture points, particularly the so-called "Gall Bladder Meridian" that runs almost exactly along the Squamous Suture. Given the age that most people engaged in combat (teens to twenties) these points on the skeletal system have not fully fused and have a fair amount of give that if struck could cause fratures and micro-fractures capable of causing serious internal bleeding and a defacto delayed death effects.
  7. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 12:54pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, but... what's Poison Hand and what does IP stand for? Wikipedia wasn't any help this time. (I'll fix that if I get an answer, tho')

    And the thing about pressure points (if I may bring in some JJJ experience here) is that it takes some work and time to get them going on the pain deal. Hakkoryu Jujutsu is a Japanese art derived from Aiki-jutsu and extra pressure points (the creator was an acupuncture/pressurist) and I learned a lot about them, especially in the arm and hand and for the majority of it all you have to be incredibly precise (as is Jet Li Shaolin Legends precise) to get these things to work and the only time I ever got one going was on a compliant partner.
  8. Guizzy is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 1:51pm


     Style: Baihequan, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IP = Iron palm = hands toughening exercises

    Poison hands = the (real or fictional) use of hands as a vector for poisoning


    Yes, you need to be fairly precise to actually strike a (real, not delayed death crap) pressure point, but unless you do that two fingers, deaden your leg by poking your arm movie fu, the effort is not wasted even if you do not get the "pressure point" effect.

    Ie; if a qinna technique has me grabbing an arm and pressing a specific pressure point in order to encourage cooperativity from my victim, then locking his arm and having him beg to be released, the pressure point is only a suggestion; a bonus. The real technique will work even if I do not get the pressure point; it's just going to be easier for me and more painful for him if I get the pressure point right. Same thing from striking pressure point. We don't waste time hitting pressure point target that are completely wasted if not hit precisely.

    Even with a phoenix eye fist, getting punched in the face works. It's not because I didn't hit your upper gums with my index knuckle that your nose, jaw and brain are completely unscathed.

    Or inversely, hitting chest muscles. There are probably pressure points there, and I wouldn't be surprised if they actually work. But if you miss them, your strike will have been mostly wasted. So training like crazy for that is wasted time.

    EDIT: Phoenix Eye fist = closed fist with the index's second knuckle protuding slightly.
    Last edited by Guizzy; 3/07/2007 2:01pm at .
  9. meataxe is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 2:07pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that knowing where the sensitive bits are has it's place along side understanding how joints move (and don't move). It can be very useful, but if it is the only thing you have, then you are lacking.
  10. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2007 2:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Don't forget, too, that pressure points are universally pain compliance techniques. That, of course, means that they work very well against a compliant partner trying to get away from pain but could remove or reduce their effect when attempted against a resistant, adrenaline filled chap who had decided to smear you into the floor regardless of the incidental pain (which he may or may not feel).

    It's my understanding of the description of daedly Dim Mak that they are universally applicable regardless of the presence of hostile intent, adrenaline, mind altering substances, etc.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
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