Thread: Bruce Lee: 'Godfather' of MMA?
2/27/2007 11:34pm, #11Originally Posted by DdlR" If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
2/28/2007 12:17am, #12
The most famous boxing vs. savate match was Driscoll vs. Charlemont (1899) - very controversial win to Charlemont (representing savate). Lots online, though the most detailed info is in French.
The most famous jiujitsu vs. savate match was Re-Nie vs. Dubois (1906) - win to Re-nie, representing jiujitsu, in under thirty seconds. There's a chapter on this fight in the Bartitsu Compendium (Lulu Publications, 2005).
Boxing vs. judo and jiujitsu matches were regular events throughout Japan, Hawaii and the Phillippines in the early years of the 1900s. They became known as "Merikan", which was the Japanese slang for "American fighting" (boxing).
Some more from Graham Noble (albeit a reference to judo as well as jiujitsu):
"Choki Motobu in Japan
Motobu was born in Shuri, the old capital of Okinawa, in 1871. He had considerable local fame in Okinawa as a fighter-strongman but it was only after he moved to Osaka in 1921 that he became known in Japanese martial art circles.
What brought Motobu to the attention of the Japanese was his victory over a western boxer in a kind of all-comers challenge match. In the earlier part of this century such bouts were occasionally held in Japan pitting western boxers against judo or jujutsu men, (karate was unknown in Japan around this time). These were not "official" bouts for any sort of legitimate title, but something more like sideshow attractions. The results of such bouts have even been recorded in a few cases. Boxing historians for example are fond of pointing out that, back in 1928 in Yokohama, top bantamweight Packy O'Gatty KO'd a Japanese jujutsu man named Shimakado in 14 seconds. That 14 seconds included the full count, by the way. E. J. Harrison also mentioned in passing a couple of boxing vs. judo shows in his book, The Fighting Spirit of Japan, first published in 1913. Few of the fighters in these events were champions in their sports, but the shows did arouse interest in a certain section of the populace.
Anyway, this was the background to Motobu's victory which so delighted the people back in Okinawa when they heard about it. Soon after Motobu settled in Japan he went to watch a boxing vs. judo show in Kyoto. A boxer taking part beat several judomen rather easily and then issued an open challenge. Moreover, the challenge was issued in a boastful and derogatory way. Choki Motobu, who was sitting in the audience stepped up onto the stage (or ring) and in the ensuing battle he knocked the boxer out-probably with a punch, or series of punches, to the head. That is about as much as we can say about it since no contemporary reports of the fight exist."
Some results that were shamelessly cribbed from Mark Hewitt's "Catch Wrestling" (2005). (PS. Buy a copy, it's good.)
* Sam McVey, boxer, beat Tano Matsuda, judoka, Dec. 31, 1908, Paris
* Taro Miyake, judoka, beat Ben de Mello, boxer, Dec. 30, 1916, Honolulu
* Kayo Morris, boxer, beat S. Takahashi, judoka, Apr. 8, 1922, Honolulu
* S. Takahashi, judoka, beat Kayo Morris, boxer, May 6, 1922, Honolulu
* Seishiro Okazaki, DZR, beat Kayo Morris, boxer, May 19, 1922, Hilo
* Luis Galtieri, boxer, beat Luis Taki, judoka, July 15, 1922, Buenos Aires (NOTE: Taki died of injuries.)
* S. Takahashi, judoka, beat Kid Carpenterio, boxer, May 12, 1923, Honolulu
* Seishiro Okazaki, DZR, beat John "Kid" Morris, boxer, Dec. 12, 1925
* Yasuji Fujita, judoka, beat Jack Duarte, boxer, July 11, 1930, Phoenix
In June 1887, Shokichi Hamada staged a boxing exhibition between two Westerners in Tokyo, and from the 1890s until the 1920s, a kind of boxing versus jujutsu known as "Merikan" [American] was seen across the Pacific Rim. In 1922, a former US naval boxer named Harvey "Heinie" Miller described a typical "Merikan" bout staged in Manila circa 1909.
The bout was to be two falls or knockdowns out of three. The Jap was to wear a sort of jiu-jitsu shirt while the American was to wear gloves. The Jap was not allowed to hit but all jiu-jitsu holds were permitted. The American was not allowed to wrestle or hold but all clean blows were permitted.
The gong rang. Quicker’n you can say ‘Sap,’ the Jap grabbed ye scribe by the right arm, twisted and pitched us on our ear in a neutral corner some fifteen feet away. One fall for the Jap. After we got the resin well out of our ear we arose only to find the little brown brother right on top of us again. But this time we beat him to it with a sweet right hand, inside and up. The little rascal only weighed 98 pounds while we displaced some 124 at that time. So we take no credit for the fact that the gent from [Tokyo] folded his tent like an Arab and silently stole out of the ring. He forfeited the third trip to the canvas, explaining that he did not expect to get hit, being under the impression that the gloves were only used as a handicap for the difference in weight.
Of course, not every boxer was the US Navy’s Pacific Fleet featherweight champion and it wasn’t hard for interested wrestlers to learn defenses against most punches. As a result, it wasn’t long before judo champions started winning most of these mixed matches. [EN11] That wasn’t the result that Western audiences wanted, and so, to maximize profits, promoters simply began arranging the outcomes of matches in advance.
E.J. Harrison had this to say about two other Yokohama matches of the same period:
At … the risk of being accused of an indiscretion, I am going to reveal the fact that somewhat irregularly and while holding the modest post of editor of The Japan Advertiser at Yokohama, I acted as an intermediary in arranging contests between an English bluejacket boxer and a Japanese judoka in one case and between an American bluejacket boxer and a Japanese judoka in the other. These contests were separately staged at a Japanese theatre in the Yokohama native quarter… The Japanese opponent of the British bluejacket was an exceptionally big and powerful Japanese who, though nominally only a first kyu (ikkyu), was well known to be as good as any contemporary 4th Dan extant, but he had been expelled from the Kodokan for unseemly behaviour beyond its borders and had therefore never been promoted to the ranks of the yudansha. Be that as it may, he was a cheerful and likeable ruffian and by his subsequent performance fully justified my choice by throwing the unfortunate [British] bluejacket all over the place. But in the second instance the tables were turned, and the Japanese ikkyu who tried conclusions with the American naval pugilist, a superb physical specimen of the 'killer' type, was so badly battered that before the end of the second round he had to retire to escape a knock-out.
During the spring of 1923, there was a mixed match at the Theatre Royal in Hong Kong. The first match pitted the Australian boxer Nick Boyle against a jujutsuka named Tomikawa. The contest was for six two-minute rounds or the finish; Boyle lost to Tomikawa in the second. The second match pitted boxer James Peets of Manila against Tomikawa. "Peets, although a big fellow," said the Japan Times, "was easy for the Jujitsu man."
On 10-11 May 1924, there was "a contest of 'Judo' and boxing between Japanese experts and Americans" in Tokyo. Twelve Americans -- so many suggests that most were actually White Russians -- and ten Japanese were scheduled to enter the ring. The results were not announced.
To welcome Vice-Admiral Sir Alexander Sinclair and his British Asiatic Fleet flagship HMS Hawkins to Yokohama on 18 Sep 1925, city officials organized a display of Japanese swordsmanship and boxing versus jujutsu matches. No results were recorded in Japan Times.
Info. on boxing vs. jiujitsu matches in Europe (excuse the casual translation from German):
On February 8th, 1906, Katsukuma Higashi defeated the British
boxer R. Fitzsimmons at Zirkus Schumann, Schiffbauer-Damm, Berlin,
probably with a strangulation-technique.
"The representative of the Japanese fighting sport of Jiu Jitsu, Higashi, informs us that his commitment at the Apollo theatre has now been concluded. Higashi professes himself ready for a contest with the boxer Fitzsimmons.
In: o.A., Jiu Jitsu, in: Berliner Tageblatt (morning edition)
02.02.1906, S. 7
"the Jiu Jitsu match between Katsukuma Higashi and R. Fitzsimmons takes place this evening in the circus Schumann. The combat rules were determined yesterday afternoon."
In: o.A., o.T. [ the Jiu Jitsu match between... ], in: Berliner Tageblatt (morning edition) 08.02.1906, S. 7
"the Victory of the Jiu Jitsu. Circus Schumann had a big day yesterday. Higashi, the representative of the Japanese fighting sport, Jiu - Jitsu, had finally set himself against R. Fitzsimmons, the American boxer. The house was full to overflowing, but the crowd did not quite get its money's worth, because the fight between the Japanese and the American was short. After four minutes Fitzsimmons had to excuse himself because of exhaustion and so was declared defeated. His opponent had packed it to the Gurgel.
The fight did not make for an edifying spectacle. We would also add that Fitzsimmons has suffered for some time from the consequences of a rather violent cold and has not been in form over recent days. The public displeasure over the surprising shortness of the fight was quite vehement." In: o.A., the victory of the Jiu Jitsu, in: Berliner Tageblatt (morning edition) 09.02.1906, S. 6
3.) Around 1908 (between 1906 and 1910) Edmond Vary (known as the author of several JJ and self defence books) came up against against the German boxer Paul Matschke alias "Joe Edward" RK Circus shrubs. Erich Rahn, who was Vary's second, wrote: "One day appeared in Berlin a Frenchman - Edmund Vary - who proclaimed himself to be a master of the Jiu Jitsu style, but who transpired not to be an outstanding exponent of that art. He sought to win a few marks by challenging the boxer Edwards, although he, as turned out later, was not equipped for such a fight in even the smallest measure.
The meeting took place in the Cirkus Busch. I was asked by Vary at the last minute to function as his second and explained that although I had no idea about his ability, I was willing to serve. The fight was disastrous for the so-called "Jiu Jitsu master". Consequently, both force- and talent-less he stepped forward and was then felled by a straight punch to the nose. He attempted to trip his opponent while on the ground, but the boxer simply evaded these attempts. I realised that he had no prospects for victory and proclaimed that he had been defeated. Automatically I had to think of the famous fight of Higashi against the boxer Fitsimons in the Cirkus Schumann. In neither case had police permission been obtained to stage the fights. Anyhow the final result was that except when opposed to a boxer in an exhibition fight, jiujitsu was still forbidden.
Later, I was able to interest the police in Jiu Jitsu, and the prohibitions were waived. Edwards used his victory well in advertising, but was never to agree to fight me under these rules, despite repeated challenges"
In: Rahn, Erich, 50 years Jiu Jitsu and judo; The invisible weapon with Erich Rahn; Pressure Berne pool of broadcasting corporations, Berlin o.D. (1950) S.21
After WW I. German Jiu Jitsu pioneer Erich Rahn himself fought against boxers at Zirkus Krone, Munich:
4.) October 11th, 1919: Erich Rahn defeats boxer Joe Dirksen with a
5.) October 15th, 1919: Erich Rahn defeats the German boxing-champion
Dick Armstrong with a strangulation technique.
6.) October 17th, 1919: In a rematch Erich Rahn defeats Dick Armstrong
(who this time fought without gloves) with "chin-grip".
"the well-known champion boxer Joe Dirksen challenged the Jiu Jitsu master Erich Rahn to a fight, to take place on the evening of Saturday, 11 October, in the evening in the Cirkus Krone. This excites the greatest interest, since these two defense methods, mutually applied, will be put to the test. It is absolutely impossible to express any confident opinion over the result."
Announcement of the Cirkus Krone October 1919.
"Cirkus Krone. The management of the Cirkus Krone communicates to us that the champion boxer Armstrong has challenged the Jiu Jitsu master Erich Rahn to a match using 6 ounce boxing gloves on Wednesday, the 15. D M. provoked. If Mr. Armstrong should be defeated against expectations, then a revenge fight without gloves will take place on Friday the 17th.
After that Rahn won against the boxers Harry and Willi Goetz, but these two also have had Jiu Jitsu training, and it seems that the matches were pure JJ-fights.
Austria probably also have seen such fights, and possibly until short after WWII., when in the late 1940's Austrian Jiu Jitsu men fought against other styles at Zirkus Rebernigg in Vienna, but unfortunately I don't know any details about that fights as yet."
Jiujitsu vs. "American wrestling" - http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_leonard_0802.htm
Article including an account of Bartitsu Club instructor Sadekazu Uyenishi vs. a Russian wrestler named Klemsky, and of another Bartitsu Club instructor, Arman Cherpillod (Swiss all-in wrestling) vs. Catch-as-catch-can wrestler Joe Carroll: http://www.bartitsu.org/exhibitions.html
Lots of info. on Bartitsu Club instructor Yukio Tani's challenge matches against various wrestling styles: http://ejmas.com/jalt/jaltart_Noble_1000.htm
There's lots more out there, but this will get you started!
Last edited by DdlR; 2/28/2007 12:35am at .
2/28/2007 4:39pm, #13
Thanks very much. Terrific reading..I will do some digging of my own and see what I can find.
I love the phrase 'cheerful and likable ruffian' used to describe the Japanese competitor who had fallen out of favor in his home country's organization.
Jiu Jitsu's respectable track record comes as no surprise..." If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
2/28/2007 7:24pm, #14
The jiujitsu guys had a few distinct advantages; Tani and Uyenishi, for example, always required their opponents to wear gi jackets, and the majority of British wrestlers during that period were unaccustomed to jacket wrestling. The Japanese fighters were also allowed to use submission holds, and likewise, most British wrestling styles at that time were focussed on either throwing a man flat on his back from a standing start, or on pin-falls.
There were two major exceptions to this general rule, though. Lancashire catch-as-catch-can allowed "pain holds", though these were typically used to "encourage" an opponent into a pin-fall position rather than to gain a submission victory; and Cornish (or Cornu-Breton) style wrestling used canvas jackets very similar to gi jackets. Anecdotal evidence suggests that Tani and Uyenishi had the most trouble against the catch-as-catch-can and Cornish styles. Tani is recorded as having lost an "experimental" match against Armand Cherpillod at the Bartitsu Club, when Cherpillod goaded him into wrestling without jackets.
In 1905 Teddy Roosevelt, who was a trained boxer and wrestler as well as one of the first Americans to study jiujitsu, wrote:
Yesterday afternoon we had Professor Yamashita up here to wrestle with Grant. It was very interesting, but of course jiu jitsu and our wrestling are so far apart that it is difficult to make any comparison between them. Wrestling is simply a sport with rules almost as conventional as those of tennis, while jiu jitsu is really meant for practice in killing or disabling our adversary. In consequence, Grant did not know what to do except to put Yamashita on his back, and Yamashita was perfectly content to be on his back. Inside of a minute Yamashita had choked Grant, and inside of two minutes more he got an elbow hold on him that would have enabled him to break his arm; so that there is no question but that he could have put Grant out.
So far this made it evident that the jiu jitsu man could handle the ordinary wrestler. But Grant, in the actual wrestling and throwing was about as good as the Japanese, and he was so much stronger that he evidently hurt and wore out the Japanese. With a little practice in the art I am sure that one of our big wrestlers or boxers, simply because of his greatly superior strength, would be able to kill any of those Japanese, who though very good men for their inches and pounds are altogether too small to hold their own against big, powerful, quick men who are as well trained.
3/01/2007 12:55pm, #15
I didn't know about Bob Fitzsimmons involvement in mixed-style matches..he was the first boxer to win a title in three different divisions (middleweight, light heavyweight and heavyweight). His fight with J. Corbett is legendary, my father has it on tape.
Edit: Teddy R.was quite a tough guy. I remember reading about his wrestling and boxing skills, but did not know he studied jiu jitsu
Last edited by OZZ; 3/01/2007 12:59pm at ." If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
3/01/2007 1:19pm, #16
Just flipping through one of my books "The Deadliest Men: The World's Deadliest Combatants Throughout the Ages"..(written by Paul Kirchner). One of the chapters is dedicated to a a man by the name of Sokaku Takeda who may have been the one who hooked up Teddy Roosevelt with his Jiu Jitsu instructor...
Apparently, the wandering Takeda (who was trained in Jiu JItsu, Sumo and even studied Okinawanate for a time) had bested an American or two and had been teaching a man named Charles Parry that knew Teddy R. Roosevelt took sufficient interest in this Takeda fellow and Takeda sent a disciple named Shunso Hareda to the United States where he instructed the president and other government leaders for three years.
3/01/2007 1:48pm, #17
It's funny that the German newspapers referred to Fitzsimmons both as an American and an Englishman - he was actually born in Cornwall but grew up in New Zealand.
On Teddy Roosevelt's involvement with boxing, wrestling and jiujitsu, see http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth1_1000.htm and http://ejmas.com/jmanly/articles/200...evelt_0102.htm .
3/01/2007 3:51pm, #18
- Join Date
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No surprise that DDLR has provided excellent reference material, as always. Another example of mixed martial arts prior to Bruce Lee would be the development of Kajukenbo, when Emperado et al spent several years figuring out how best to counter various attacks from their combined knowledge of karate, judo/ju jitsu, kenpo and Chinese boxing(kung fu)
5/07/2007 10:13pm, #19
- Join Date
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- Spokane, WA
Gene Lebell-Judo vs Milo Savage-Boxing December 2, 1963
Antonio Inoki-Catch Wrestling vs Muhammad Ali-Boxing June 26, 1976
5/08/2007 12:41am, #20
I didn't think trolling threads were allowed in this forum.