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  1. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2007 10:43pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally Posted by Feryk

    I've seen five different bunkai interpretations from five different people in the same club.

    What does that tell you?

    I didn't stick around, either.

    You may have seen different interpretations but you need to look back at an earlier post

    Size

    Weight

    Strength

    Speed

    Agility


    All these help in a person determining an interpretaton of a move in kata. You can't expect a 60 year old to put a jump spinning back kick in where an 18 year old might. Not saying that either one is wrong, but the move is really in my humble opinion dependent on what that person is either capable or willing to do.
  2. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2007 6:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jtkarate
    You may have seen different interpretations but you need to look back at an earlier post

    Size

    Weight

    Strength

    Speed

    Agility


    All these help in a person determining an interpretaton of a move in kata. You can't expect a 60 year old to put a jump spinning back kick in where an 18 year old might. Not saying that either one is wrong, but the move is really in my humble opinion dependent on what that person is either capable or willing to do.
    I disagree. There is a 'right' way to do a kata, and there are those who are incapable of doing the kata this way (although that really only applies to some of the more advanced ones--at least in my style). We don't use a jumping spinning back kick in ANY of our katas, although we do use a jumping hisa-geri mae-geri combination in one. Just because I can't do it doesn't mean I can throw something else in there.

    What I was referring to is looking at an opening sequence in (for example) Pinan #2 (or #1 depending on your style). Five guys wearing BBs are telling five different stories about what this move is supposed to do (in the same club). They range from blocking a chair being thrown at your head (I'm not kidding), to an arm break, to a joint lock. What does this tell me? No one knows, and they are making stuff up.

    Some of the moves in katas are ambiguous. I don't know if that was on purpose or by accident, but the bottom line is that they can (and have) been interpreted several different ways. I would much prefer a sensei (or sempai) who says, 'I don't know, I'll ask and get back to you', over someone who doesn't know and just makes his own **** up.

    FTR, the best interpretation I've seen of that particular move is that it is a block and a kamae, and that's all. No flying furniture involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  3. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 7:16am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, some people have it in their mind the more complex and crazy a move seems then the more "advanced" it is because it took them six nights of "meditation" to uncover the secret. In Seiunchin [sp?] kata in Goju there's this one Kiba Dachi then Gedan Berai. Except it's not JUST that. It's a Block, grab wrist (aikido guys would love it), arm lock, arm break, groin shot, and push your knee on the back of theirs to "force them to the ground"

    I prefer the Gedan Berai.
  4. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 3:26pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Also, some people have it in their mind the more complex and crazy a move seems then the more "advanced" it is because it took them six nights of "meditation" to uncover the secret. In Seiunchin [sp?] kata in Goju there's this one Kiba Dachi then Gedan Berai. Except it's not JUST that. It's a Block, grab wrist (aikido guys would love it), arm lock, arm break, groin shot, and push your knee on the back of theirs to "force them to the ground"

    I prefer the Gedan Berai.
    Hah! This makes me laugh, only because I've seen this so often. Like Freud said. "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar."

    What is it about karateka that we need to make our katas endlessly complex?

    Do we need to feel like there are special secrets in there? What the heck is wrong with perfecting basic moves and combinations? Doesn't that give us enough to work on?
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  5. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 10:10pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's just the need to feel that there's something "Special" or "Deep" about our art. Some people find it in pseudo-Asian philosophy, some in increasingly complex "hidden moves" in the kata. My old Shihan said it like this "The old Karate Masters did not was the other people to figure out what they were doing as they danced in the field"

    Wow. Just wow.
  6. jtkarate is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 10:11pm


     Style: karate,judo,JJ,Aikido,TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally Posted by Feryk

    Some of the moves in katas are ambiguous. I don't know if that was on purpose or by accident, but the bottom line is that they can (and have) been interpreted several different ways. I would much prefer a sensei (or sempai) who says, 'I don't know, I'll ask and get back to you', over someone who doesn't know and just makes his own **** up.
    That is so true. I know for a fact that no two people will learn/interpret katas the same. For example. Each year we have to have a 3 day instructors seminar to renew our teaching credintials. Each year we will learn a new kata from a diffrnt style. A few years ago we did nijushiho..now we were all watching the same thing but afterwards I noticed several high ranked people doing it differently then the way we were taught.

    Reason being they saw something differently,didn't understand or just forgot. this goes along with if you have a room full of people and tell one person something and then have them pass it on when it gets to the last person it will be different than the original message.
  7. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 11:05pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I really hate kata, but at least in Enshin there's really no need for interpretation in the kata. Ex.
    http://www.google.com/videoplay\?doc...018247431046&q
    Last edited by ojgsxr6; 3/15/2007 11:07pm at .
  8. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    3/15/2007 11:08pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Same kata only with people on the other end:
    http://www.google.com/videoplay\?doc...795000940108&q

    For some reason I can't get it to embed.
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...&q=enshin+kata
  9. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 2:22pm

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    I disagree. There is a 'right' way to do a kata, and there are those who are incapable of doing the kata this way (although that really only applies to some of the more advanced ones--at least in my style). We don't use a jumping spinning back kick in ANY of our katas, although we do use a jumping hisa-geri mae-geri combination in one. Just because I can't do it doesn't mean I can throw something else in there.
    There is only one way to do any specific kata.

    The differences are in the interpretation, and those are what is based on the physical characteristics of the combatants.

    The interpretations come in when a person takes the technique they have learned and figures out when, how, and if it applies to them and the particular situation they are in.

    This does not apply to the way they perform the kata itself, just what they see each move as representing in their mind.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  10. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    3/16/2007 3:41pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    I really hate kata, but at least in Enshin there's really no need for interpretation in the kata. Ex.
    I've never really had much exposure to Enshin before, but this is awesome.

    Short, effective movements. Nothing embellished or ambiguous. It looks the same vs. live people or not.

    Liked this alot.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
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