3/01/2007 9:19pm, #71
Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
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When he's educated me I'll make sure he reports back. We're probably arguing the same point. Again."Listen to Iscariot you Vicchysoise ninja-fuckers!" - kohadril
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3/01/2007 9:27pm, #72
Who drinks wine? I myself have chosen to inebriate myself on the cheapest of vodka and rum. (Even though I've sworn off the stuff about twenty times... vodka that is)
So... yeah... kata... and philosophy... and film. The Karate Kid's back?
Honestly I feel that it doesn't matter who is making the moves shouldn't the bunkai in each kata that works in sparring be the de-facto "move" associated with it? And if none can be though of to work then it is discarded or just kept to gain ranks in systems that have higher powers who deem kata needed for such things?
3/01/2007 10:16pm, #73Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
The problem is that what works is still a function of multiple variables;
and the differential between you and your agressor on all points.
I have seen the same move in a Kata explained as
Stepping offline with a block
Stepping offline with a strike
Stepping offline with a grab/ lock
and if the relationship was correct, and the defender was competant, they were all effective.
Just because a move in Kata doesn't translate into an effective Bunkai for one person does not mean it should be discarded. It may work extremely well for a different person.
To use an example from the book (Shotokan's Secret)
Matsumura was a bull of a man, while Itosu was small and thin. The kata they developed however was meant to be a primer for all of the Okenawan Kings bodyguards. The kata are purposly general, so anyone can find the application that works for them.
Kata are not useless. Their purpose needs to be discovered through training. I don't belive they are all there is to Karate, but once decoded on a personal level, they can add a great dimension.
Sorry if the thoughts are foggy, I am suffering from a sinus infection and currently taking enough drugs to start my own Pharmacy.
3/02/2007 2:53am, #74Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
I guess I was a little more pissed at the "Find out yerself to Master this Kata" seems like very bad teaching to me, you know? I doubt the creators of Seisan or Saifa were like "Oh cool, let's put a bunch of things together and a hundred years from now let people try to figure out what they mean on their own!" It's like trying to find meaning in modern art, half the time you're just grasping at air.
I mean, look at the photo, some Joe Sensei was pro'lly watching UFC at home thinking both "I could kick these guys asses" and "I love kata" at the same time and pulled this out of nowhere.
Don't get me wrong, I actually like doing kata. I'm sentimental like that, but some people just really really abuse them.
And gotta love the meds...:icon_bigs
3/02/2007 5:17am, #75Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
I don't suggest students be told "heres your Kata, find all the Bunkai", as an individual, that would be almost impossible. The Instructor, however, should be able to point out some obvious interpretations, let the student work with them in a sparring situation, and see what works for them.
I'm a bit unusual, in that, between 8 and 10 years old I took parks and rec. judo. It was taught by a brown belt to try to drum up business for the school she belonged to. I just took it as a parks and rec class and never joined the school.
The point of the autobiographical aside is, at 40 years old (joined with my son,10), I go through Kata, and find throws and takedowns where others find strikes and parrys. I also use them as a warmup/ cool down routine, they are relaxing in an almost meditative way, and the constant repetition (done correctly) builds excellent muscle memory.
At 250 lbs. this works well for me. I don't step off line as fast as a smaller person, but my hands are very quick (ice hockey goalie) and I can transfer a lot of inertia.
I have the luck of going to a school where one of the main instructors teaches BJJ and another did Aikido for several years. They have been a great help in determining my particular "style".
Hope this helps,
As for the meds, this post was written at 4:50am local time. If I could be sleeping, trust me I would.:sleepy1:
I NEED A BETTER CLASS OF DRUGS.
WHERE'S MY BOURBON!!
3/02/2007 9:33am, #76
- Join Date
- Feb 2007
I would have to say that what FickleFinger just wrote would have been pretty damn close to what I would have put. Well aside from his personal experiences with Judo that is.
As with FickleFingers example, bunkai showed him where he could incorporate Judo throws and takedowns into an art traditionally focused on striking.
Howevr, taking myself as an example, I first began karate about two decades ago in a sports based school. There was no bunkai taught aside from the instructor's interpretation of the moves, nor were we ever encouraged to think outside the box. After tiring of the same **** for 6 years I left martial arts altogether (I admit I was naive at the time and assumed all martial arts were pretty much the same). After a handful of years on hiatus I returned to other styles to see if my assumptions were right or not. One of the systems I trained in before eventually returning to a real karate dojo was Silat, And within the first few months I found myself completely blown away by one simple fact--there were a lot of moves that I did in karate that were being taught in Silat--but with very different interpretations of the moves. Some of these moves required a slight modification to be executed and some were nearly identical.
The point of my rambling is that bunkai not only allows practioners one of style to look at different way of performing the same moves, but it allows those with experience in other styles and systems to incorportate aspects into their training that might be lacking.
3/12/2007 5:49pm, #77
I've seen five different bunkai interpretations from five different people in the same club.
What does that tell you?
I didn't stick around, either.Originally Posted by pauli
Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
3/12/2007 6:19pm, #78
Further, and to stay on topic, I've been doing the same katas for years now.
How I do them now is very different from how I started doing them. Why?
Because my understanding of the principles contained in the katas is different. Because my body moves differently with more training. Because things I couldn't grasp at white belt make more sense to me now, and I can apply them across katas, and into kumite.
I don't pretend to know what every move in each kata is supposed to do. I know what others have said. Some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't. For me, kata is like a library or a laboratory. I can go through my katas and explore different concepts, and how my body moves, weight shifts, am I more stable? etc.
I can break out sections of the kata and work on them in drills with a partner and begin to pressure test them. After getting hit a lot, I can figure out what is working for me and what isn't. That doesn't mean I won't go back a year later to the same kata and pull something different out. There always seems to be more there than I can see now.
I know that common wisdom says that katas are bad and outmoded ways of training MA, but I still get a lot out of them, and find training them enjoyable. Perhaps I'm just dancing as DerAus says, but I believe it has helped me explore the principles of my art.Originally Posted by pauli
Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
3/12/2007 6:36pm, #79Originally Posted by Iscariot
Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
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3/12/2007 8:50pm, #80Originally Posted by kickcatcher