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  1. Iscariot is offline

    I decided I'd have a pretty avatar for a while.

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 9:19pm


     Style: Student Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    Guys, We are still discussing Kata, Right?

    'cause my head just exploded.

    If I grasped this at all, and I'm not sure I did, you're both basically saying that to understand the meaning of the Kata, one must understand the sociopolitical environment under which it was developed.

    If that is true the book I mentioned would be an excellent example.


    If not, I look like an Idiot across 3 continents right now.

    How am I doing so far, or should I consider that one way ticket back to the KMA forum?
    Sorry, let me explain. DAYoung and I occasionally have discussions of this kind, what with him being a deity of Philosophy and me being a lowly film student. We tend to have these over on Sociocide, but the opportunity presented itself, and I'm hammered on cheap wine. It might actually relate to the discussion you were having on the meaning of kata when we sort it all out.

    When he's educated me I'll make sure he reports back. We're probably arguing the same point. Again.
    "Listen to Iscariot you Vicchysoise ninja-fuckers!" - kohadril
    "Are you going to rise to godhood out of the ashes of Earth? " - frumpleswift
    "I'll pray for you Iscariot." - Mas
    "Iscariot, check your pulse and report back. We need to know if you are in fact, not alive." - Lu Tzu
    "Iscariot is victorious!" - Dai Tenshi
    "More God delusions." - DAYoung
    "Iscariot, despite our obvious doctrinal differences, I salute your exquisite bastardry, and take back half of all the bad things I ever said about you." - Zendetta
  2. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 9:27pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Who drinks wine? I myself have chosen to inebriate myself on the cheapest of vodka and rum. (Even though I've sworn off the stuff about twenty times... vodka that is)

    So... yeah... kata... and philosophy... and film. The Karate Kid's back?

    Honestly I feel that it doesn't matter who is making the moves shouldn't the bunkai in each kata that works in sparring be the de-facto "move" associated with it? And if none can be though of to work then it is discarded or just kept to gain ranks in systems that have higher powers who deem kata needed for such things?
  3. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 10:16pm

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Who drinks wine? I myself have chosen to inebriate myself on the cheapest of vodka and rum. (Even though I've sworn off the stuff about twenty times... vodka that is)

    So... yeah... kata... and philosophy... and film. The Karate Kid's back?

    Honestly I feel that it doesn't matter who is making the moves shouldn't the bunkai in each kata that works in sparring be the de-facto "move" associated with it? And if none can be though of to work then it is discarded or just kept to gain ranks in systems that have higher powers who deem kata needed for such things?

    The problem is that what works is still a function of multiple variables;

    Size

    Weight

    Strength

    Speed

    Agility

    and the differential between you and your agressor on all points.

    I have seen the same move in a Kata explained as

    Stepping offline with a block

    Stepping offline with a strike

    Stepping offline with a grab/ lock

    A throw.

    and if the relationship was correct, and the defender was competant, they were all effective.

    Just because a move in Kata doesn't translate into an effective Bunkai for one person does not mean it should be discarded. It may work extremely well for a different person.


    To use an example from the book (Shotokan's Secret)

    http://www.amazon.com/Shotokans-Secr...e=UTF8&s=books


    Matsumura was a bull of a man, while Itosu was small and thin. The kata they developed however was meant to be a primer for all of the Okenawan Kings bodyguards. The kata are purposly general, so anyone can find the application that works for them.


    Kata are not useless. Their purpose needs to be discovered through training. I don't belive they are all there is to Karate, but once decoded on a personal level, they can add a great dimension.



    Sorry if the thoughts are foggy, I am suffering from a sinus infection and currently taking enough drugs to start my own Pharmacy.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  4. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/02/2007 2:53am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    The problem is that what works is still a function of multiple variables;

    Size

    Weight

    Strength

    Speed

    Agility

    and the differential between you and your agressor on all points.

    I have seen the same move in a Kata explained as

    Stepping offline with a block

    Stepping offline with a strike

    Stepping offline with a grab/ lock

    A throw.

    and if the relationship was correct, and the defender was competant, they were all effective.

    Just because a move in Kata doesn't translate into an effective Bunkai for one person does not mean it should be discarded. It may work extremely well for a different person.


    To use an example from the book (Shotokan's Secret)

    http://www.amazon.com/Shotokans-Secr...e=UTF8&s=books


    Matsumura was a bull of a man, while Itosu was small and thin. The kata they developed however was meant to be a primer for all of the Okenawan Kings bodyguards. The kata are purposly general, so anyone can find the application that works for them.


    Kata are not useless. Their purpose needs to be discovered through training. I don't belive they are all there is to Karate, but once decoded on a personal level, they can add a great dimension.



    Sorry if the thoughts are foggy, I am suffering from a sinus infection and currently taking enough drugs to start my own Pharmacy.
    Good argument. However, just bringing in body types/sizes and preferences of te practitioner does not justify "Here's a kata, think of 10,000 ways to use each move even though two work for you"

    I guess I was a little more pissed at the "Find out yerself to Master this Kata" seems like very bad teaching to me, you know? I doubt the creators of Seisan or Saifa were like "Oh cool, let's put a bunch of things together and a hundred years from now let people try to figure out what they mean on their own!" It's like trying to find meaning in modern art, half the time you're just grasping at air.

    I mean, look at the photo, some Joe Sensei was pro'lly watching UFC at home thinking both "I could kick these guys asses" and "I love kata" at the same time and pulled this out of nowhere.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually like doing kata. I'm sentimental like that, but some people just really really abuse them.

    And gotta love the meds...:icon_bigs
  5. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2007 5:17am

    supporting member
     Style: Karate/ Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Good argument. However, just bringing in body types/sizes and preferences of te practitioner does not justify "Here's a kata, think of 10,000 ways to use each move even though two work for you"

    I guess I was a little more pissed at the "Find out yerself to Master this Kata" seems like very bad teaching to me, you know? I doubt the creators of Seisan or Saifa were like "Oh cool, let's put a bunch of things together and a hundred years from now let people try to figure out what they mean on their own!" It's like trying to find meaning in modern art, half the time you're just grasping at air.

    I mean, look at the photo, some Joe Sensei was pro'lly watching UFC at home thinking both "I could kick these guys asses" and "I love kata" at the same time and pulled this out of nowhere.

    Don't get me wrong, I actually like doing kata. I'm sentimental like that, but some people just really really abuse them.

    And gotta love the meds...:icon_bigs
    I agree, The instructor should be explaining it better than that IMHO. Figuring out bunkai is not something you do instinctively. It is a learned process. I do think, once a person starts to get a feel for what type of techniques and movements work for them, the process becomes progressively easier.

    I don't suggest students be told "heres your Kata, find all the Bunkai", as an individual, that would be almost impossible. The Instructor, however, should be able to point out some obvious interpretations, let the student work with them in a sparring situation, and see what works for them.

    I'm a bit unusual, in that, between 8 and 10 years old I took parks and rec. judo. It was taught by a brown belt to try to drum up business for the school she belonged to. I just took it as a parks and rec class and never joined the school.

    The point of the autobiographical aside is, at 40 years old (joined with my son,10), I go through Kata, and find throws and takedowns where others find strikes and parrys. I also use them as a warmup/ cool down routine, they are relaxing in an almost meditative way, and the constant repetition (done correctly) builds excellent muscle memory.

    At 250 lbs. this works well for me. I don't step off line as fast as a smaller person, but my hands are very quick (ice hockey goalie) and I can transfer a lot of inertia.

    I have the luck of going to a school where one of the main instructors teaches BJJ and another did Aikido for several years. They have been a great help in determining my particular "style".

    Hope this helps,

    As for the meds, this post was written at 4:50am local time. If I could be sleeping, trust me I would.:sleepy1:


    I NEED A BETTER CLASS OF DRUGS.

    WHERE'S MY BOURBON!!
    Last edited by FickleFingerOfFate; 3/02/2007 5:22am at .
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  6. bearich is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2007 9:33am


     Style: Karate / Judo Noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would have to say that what FickleFinger just wrote would have been pretty damn close to what I would have put. Well aside from his personal experiences with Judo that is.



    As with FickleFingers example, bunkai showed him where he could incorporate Judo throws and takedowns into an art traditionally focused on striking.

    Howevr, taking myself as an example, I first began karate about two decades ago in a sports based school. There was no bunkai taught aside from the instructor's interpretation of the moves, nor were we ever encouraged to think outside the box. After tiring of the same **** for 6 years I left martial arts altogether (I admit I was naive at the time and assumed all martial arts were pretty much the same). After a handful of years on hiatus I returned to other styles to see if my assumptions were right or not. One of the systems I trained in before eventually returning to a real karate dojo was Silat, And within the first few months I found myself completely blown away by one simple fact--there were a lot of moves that I did in karate that were being taught in Silat--but with very different interpretations of the moves. Some of these moves required a slight modification to be executed and some were nearly identical.

    The point of my rambling is that bunkai not only allows practioners one of style to look at different way of performing the same moves, but it allows those with experience in other styles and systems to incorportate aspects into their training that might be lacking.
  7. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 5:49pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen five different bunkai interpretations from five different people in the same club.

    What does that tell you?

    I didn't stick around, either.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  8. Feryk is offline

    Boneheaded Optimist

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 6:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Further, and to stay on topic, I've been doing the same katas for years now.

    How I do them now is very different from how I started doing them. Why?

    Because my understanding of the principles contained in the katas is different. Because my body moves differently with more training. Because things I couldn't grasp at white belt make more sense to me now, and I can apply them across katas, and into kumite.

    I don't pretend to know what every move in each kata is supposed to do. I know what others have said. Some of it makes sense, some of it doesn't. For me, kata is like a library or a laboratory. I can go through my katas and explore different concepts, and how my body moves, weight shifts, am I more stable? etc.

    I can break out sections of the kata and work on them in drills with a partner and begin to pressure test them. After getting hit a lot, I can figure out what is working for me and what isn't. That doesn't mean I won't go back a year later to the same kata and pull something different out. There always seems to be more there than I can see now.

    I know that common wisdom says that katas are bad and outmoded ways of training MA, but I still get a lot out of them, and find training them enjoyable. Perhaps I'm just dancing as DerAus says, but I believe it has helped me explore the principles of my art.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 6:36pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscariot
    I vote you PM me and explain all the words in this post.
    No need. This is what he meant:

    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. DerAuslander is offline
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    Valiant Monk of Booze & War

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 8:50pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    Bunkai sucks and trying to redefine it in the Western mind to mean all of karate just makes all of karate suck. :biblethum
    Any time you'd like to engage in logical conversation, I'm more than willing.
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