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  1. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 10:53pm

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    Tom, you have to do something about your avatars. Those fuzzy white pixelated borders are beneath you.

    He's saving his pennies, something about a contract with MJS.

    Hey Tom, I'll kick in the $150.00 if you can make it happen.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  2. bearich is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 11:03pm


     Style: Karate / Judo Noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    There are no techniques found in bunkai.

    Bunkai is not a thing in itself.

    It is a training process.

    The kata is the syllabus.

    Bunkai is how you learn the kata.

    It's not a part of karate training.

    It's not something you do one night, then kata the next, then kumite on another night.

    Bunkai is not a facet of karate training.

    Bunkai is all of karate training.

    *combining two sections since they touch on the same thing*
    Stop confusing bunkai for applications.

    Bunkai is not a thing.

    Bunkai is not a sequence of moves.

    It is not "if my opponent attacks this way, I will respond with this, this, and then finish him with this."
    I think this is were we are having an issue--with the meaning of bunkai. I'm not sure what you're defination of bunkai is, but mine pretty much goes hand in hand with application--which is why I correlate the two.

    My reasoning behind my view on bunkai is based on the translation of bunkai which roughly translates to "analysis". So to me bunkai is the analysis of kata. And while one can easily analyze anything, without context to put it in place the data collected and reviewed cannot be acccurately viewed.

    For example, say you never saw a car before. I could produce a car and stick it in front of you. You could analyze it until you've picked it through inch by inch. But until you know it's intended function and how it would work, how would you know what is significant or not?

    Just out of curiousity, what is your definition of bunkai?



    Shuto is just a hand formation.

    You're probably referrring to shuto-uke.
    Yes that is correct. I left uke off since it tend to connotate a block when I was trying to emphasis that it can be a strike as well.


    People don't use shuto-uke in a sparring situation because either A) they aren't taught to use it, or B) they are taught to use it wrong.

    Look at how a boxer learns to cover and slip a punch and then respond. Think of how many lessons need to be learn and attributes need to be developed in order to successfully slip a punch and respond.

    The application of a shuto-uke is fairly similar. Now train it like a boxer. First off, your conditioning needs to be developed. You're going to need to learn footwork. You'll need to learn how to judge distance, maintain distance, learn how to see the punch coming. All of this before you can learn how to actually receive the punch accordingly.

    This is also assuming you actually know how a shuto-uke is supposed to be applied in an alive setting, and not against another kata dancer coming at you with a lunge punch.
    Exactly my point. By making the application of a shuto-uke always a block or a strike, rather than a set up for a lock or throw every third time, then the odds of someone learning to develop it properly is will greatly increased. Then they can look at utilizing it in other ways.



    Technique existed before kata.

    Kata was created to record technique.

    Kata was not created so people could look at it and say, "hm...I can come up with a technique that explains those motions."

    Kata is intended to be a moving syllabus in place of a written one, created in a culture of secrecy for an art that used to be completely closed door and passed on only from teacher to student.

    The kata is a textbook, a syllabus. Just moving along with it, with or without a partner still is not teaching you how to fight.
    Yes the techniques were around before kata and that it was orginally done for a lack of available option when it came to writen scripts. However, kata, and martial arts in general, will be different for each person, as FickleFinger illustrated in this post:
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerofFate
    We had a great example of the highlighted portion last weekend. I was partnersd with a 21 year old man who weighs about 170 lbs and stands 6' 2". I weigh between 245-250lbs at 6' even. We were told to defend against an attacker with a practice knife, and to use the most effective method to avoid getting cut. When I attacked, his main technique involved stepping offline, striking the knife arm, and lookin for an exit. When he attacked, I sidstepped, struck the most available portion of the knife hand and subdued him by either strikes and or throws and disarms.

    He knew he had no chance of overpowering me, and looked to parry and escape, I knew I could not move fast enough to evade him, and went for the disarm and subdue.

    Two very different outcomes, based on the same initial technique, and both correct based on the size and weight of the attacker/ defender.

    The techniques each employed however, would not have worked for the other.
    Just because a move is done one way in a kata does not mean that it's the only way it can be done. If is not open to interpretation and analysis of each move, how can one determine what would work for them more effectively or other potential uses for the same body movements in different ways?

    Heck you can even use other areas of life for similar examples. Laws were around before lawyers. But a lawyers job (no offense to any lawyers if I'm wrong) is to examine and interpret the laws laid out before them. Each one looks at the same laws given to them and says "hmm, I can come up with a different interpretation of these motions" (sorry for the bad pun).
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 11:48pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    Tom, you have to do something about your avatars. Those fuzzy white pixelated borders are beneath you.

    ???

    It looks okay from my end. If you could, take a screen grab of this post and PM it to me in an attachment with a brief description of what you see as wrong.



    :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

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  4. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 12:25am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kickcatcher
    Look at the pic and read the commentry that the Go Kan Ryu karate instructor has added. It's a good example of what can happen when people trying to make up bunkai to justify their kata also happen to be unworldly.
    http://www.gkrkarate.org/pages/Kata/essays/saifal.html


    Now it may be that the Go Kan Ryu instructor is underqualified, or it may be that kata bunkai is inherently unrealistic, or both.

    I know I'm preaching to the chior when I suggest that an alive training environment would soon put a stop to such rediculous training, but I guess that's not how karate makes its money.

    So what other examples of people making up and believing plainly unrealistic or inplausible bunkai can you find and what can we learn from their stupidity?
    This is why I left Goju Ryu (Bukedo) a lot of theoretical bunkai that is dumb as ****. I've learned this one, you see students are encouraged to take a kata and "Master" it which means not just repetition "Like all those McDojo's out there" but both be taught applications of moves and pull new ones out of your brain, the more you think of, he (T3h Shihan) hasn't the closer you are to "Mastering" that particular kata. Since he knows ALL though, that's pretty much impossible and thus takes "10 or 100 years to master unlike those McDojos" ...then we go off and point spar like the TKD Dojang down the road.

    That head smash is actually supposed to indent the temple 2-3 inches into the brain causing instant death.

    Disclaimer: I didn't read any of the other posts.
  5. DAYoung is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 12:28am

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     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    That head smash is actually supposed to indent the temple 2-3 inches into the brain causing instant death.
    Interesting. I was taught it was an eardrum rupture.
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  6. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 12:52am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    Interesting. I was taught it was an eardrum rupture.
    Nope. What you do is crush their head in, then grab their chin and twist, breaking the neck (In case, y'know, the smashed in head thing doesn't kill him) then pivot and throw the body across the legs at the guy charging like a linebacker at you from 30 yards away. Because one ALWAYS is when you crush a kid's skull and break his neck.:icon_twis
  7. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 10:33am

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    Well, I'm definitely out of my experience zone in the JMA section.

    [Drags tentacles back to Korea]

    I consider TKD Korean Karate. So your opinion still applies. go for it.
  8. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 11:06am

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMHO,

    Kata = The "style" of the MA ( the syllabus)

    Technique = The individual actions

    Bunkai = The concept of which Technique applies to a certain situation

    Kata teaches technique

    Training and sparring teach Bunkai

    techniques are the same (within reason) for everyone

    Bunkai changes with the body type and abilities of the people involved.

    People who practice technique without regard to bunkai are not learning all of the martial art. The people who learn the Bunkai thet works for them are much more rounded in their studies of their MA.

    [This is how I have come to understand it, and is by no means an expert opinion]
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


  9. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 11:15am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not surpised folks are having trouble. I seem to be reading that all forms are the same regardless of the art or intentions of the originator. Its no wonder that there is little or no agreement about applications. My guess is that folks may want to expand their understanding of what kata are about rather than just make blanket statements, yes? For instance, are most folks aware that there are generally four different categories of forms, and that the "applications" (K. "Bunseok") vary accordingly? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  10. FickleFingerOfFate is offline
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    Guess which finger is the fickle one...

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 11:35am

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     Style: Karate/ Arnis

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I'm not surpised folks are having trouble. I seem to be reading that all forms are the same regardless of the art or intentions of the originator. Its no wonder that there is little or no agreement about applications. My guess is that folks may want to expand their understanding of what kata are about rather than just make blanket statements, yes? For instance, are most folks aware that there are generally four different categories of forms, and that the "applications" (K. "Bunseok") vary accordingly? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    It sounds like you have a broader understanding than I do.

    I am aware that different Ma's have some unique kata, and some cross over (sometimes with a name difference). I unfortunately only know the ones we are taught (TKD/TSD based) and not even all of them, as I have not attained enough rank to have been shown all of them.

    I do read in addition to training, but I have found that reading or watching video on a kata is no substitute for being taught what it should feel like when done correctly.

    Any enlightenment on the subject is greatly appreciated, I believe everyone has a unique perspective, and know I have plenty to learn.
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.


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