Posted On:2/10/2007 5:48pm
Style: Muay Thai n00b
Time for some karate. Now I'm sure most of us here are familiar with Kyokushin's famous 100 man kumite and Oyama's legendary 300. Here's something to put forth: Is this found in any other karates or even just random traditional arts be they Japanese or not.
I've heard stories that he got the concept from a Goju or Shotokan master (or whatever) who had to fight an entire Dojo himself in a challenge between the schools and be beat all 50 or 100 of them or something but this is sensay so I'm not sure and can't find anything on it.
The Chinese legends (we all know how trust worthy THESE are but it's worth a mention) have every master entering a new town and wanting to make a gym had to set up a Leitai fighting platform and fight off and on for 14-20 days and as many as 200 challengers.
So it looks like there's been instances of this before Kyokushin or even Mas Oyama himself but is there say a Bujinkan "50 Ninja Challenge" or maybe some Koryu have tests that last up to 100 people or something. Just curious.
Posted On:2/10/2007 5:53pm
If I remeber correctly, Oyama did the 300 man kumite because Kimura had accomplished a 300 man randori.
Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.
Posted On:2/10/2007 10:21pm
Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo
Kimura also followed in Kano's footsteps and counted to infinity....twice.
Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee
Posted On:2/11/2007 7:57am
If going by Francisco Filho's kumite is any guide, then these were not full-force competitions, just exhibitions, ending in 'finishing' blows, not even that most of the time. No one could even fight off 300 gary colemans if they were mad.
Posted On:2/11/2007 2:57pm
From an article written by T.K. Chiba (Aikido master):
YAMAOKA TESSHU, the swordsman who founded the Muto-Ryu School of Swordsmanship during the Edo period, understandably decided to introduce the training known as "Tachigiri-No-Seigan".
His intention was to carry out a close inquiry concerning the essence of martial discipline by injecting the element of Zen discipline into the Dojo training (of swordsmanship) where the practitioners are forced to confront their own true faces by being driven into a situation where there is no escape.
The disciples of Yamaoka made a vow to engage in the following progressive training:
1st stage- Two day commitment to engage in 200 contests per day, alone, and without stopping against 20 opponents who are permitted to rest and attack in rotation. Prior to committing to the 1 st stage, the disciple had to carry out the training for 1000 days without fail.
2nd stage - Three day commitment - same as above.
3rd stage - 7 day commitment - same as above.
4th stage - 1000 days training without stopping, from 4 am to 8 pm each day, competing against 100 opponents per day.
This training regime is also mentioned in this article (in French) by Tokitsu Kenji.
Posted On:2/11/2007 4:27pm
If you watch the clips of Kancho Matsui's fights on youtube it doesn't look very "light contact" at all. And in Kyokushin once you knock someone to the ground to gain a half-point or point (full point is like Judo Ippon victory) you simulate a punch or kick to show you COULD follow it up if you so chose. I've seen Filho's fights but I'll watch them again since they look less than full contact.
DCS: I have an exam coming up so I didn't read the articles but were these fights in the modern Kendo style with shinai and bogu or were they with nothing but reg uniform and a bokken or something?
Posted On:2/11/2007 4:34pm
Shinai and bogu, kendo style.
Watch and Shoot !
Posted On:2/11/2007 5:59pm
Being a kendoka, I wouldn't relish the idea of fighting that many kenshi under those circumstances.. We'd be talking about a very high level of cardio-vascular fitness.
"To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".
Posted On:2/12/2007 12:12am
In my Judo dojo whenever someone gets the bright idea to enter some of the State level and Interstate level tournies our dans GO TO TOWN on them in randori. I mean they have to fight all the dans PLUS kyus in the room in a row, no breaks 4 or 5 minute matches ('pending on judoka's rank since matches in MA are only 4 min for kyus...)
Either way they usually get 10-15 people which amounts to a good hour long randori sentence. I say sentence because NO ONE has ever made it without collapsing once or twice (by then we give 'em a minute or two before the next fight) but man it sucks.
Note of interest tho': Two or ours guys places in the top 4 of the Chavez tournament for the Kyu Heavy and Open weight division.
I heard my Kyokushin Sensei had to fight at least that many (all sankyu's or higher) for his dan test.......
I don't know how Kendo would be but I've picked up a bogu and they're not light, and I suspect neither would be a shinai after a good fight. Even the double-weave gi feels heavy after fight #4 or so!
Posted On:2/16/2007 12:04pm
Can anybody tell me who Oyama fought for his 300 man kumite?
Or perhaps when?
I remember an interview with Steve Arneil in Fighting Arts International (Old UK TMA mag) where Steve does not know if it ever happened but said it MAY have been true.
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