2/23/2007 2:56pm, #1
"That won't work!" Slippery Slope?
Taken from the people in your dojo thread that got me thinking...
Originally Posted by Patfromlogan
This is often a cop-out I heard in my Kempo days, and I'm sure it's widespread through every style of MA there is....
Me: "Why are we teaching this technique? It won't work because of X, Y, Z..."
Response: "Well, you are not good enough at it/there is always a counter to the move/the moves aren't set in stone so you can modify them to suit the situation.
Ironically, every argument I use to explain how "alive training" is good, was countered with paying lip service to those same ideals, talking points, and comparison to my BJJ training (which always seemed to be an unspoken sore point)
For example, when I'd criticize the dead drilling of a technique, they'd compare that to dead drilling I'd do at BJJ. When I'd criticize a technique not playing out live, they'd compare it to me not being able to pull submissions or techniques learned in BJJ textbook at will either.
Anyway, to sum it up, I've learned some things in BJJ that I know I just won't use. Whether it's because it's a low percentage technique or because I'm not advanced enough is a rather moot point. I know that the environment in which I am training is healthy and I am gaining ability even if every technique isn't useful to me. But where is the line drawn on when it's fair to criticize, or when you're just a noob who isn't good enough yet? If you're new to MA, you may not be able to tell the difference between good and poor techniques, and I feel too many people like that are being suckered by BS artists who use the same talking points as Alive training schools.Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
...Willing is not enough you must do ~Bruce Lee
2/23/2007 3:13pm, #2
There are people who observe the 100 meter hurdle event and don't get why you can't just step to the side and run a 100 meter dash instead.
There are also people who observe the 100 meter hurdle event and don't get why you shouldn't stop between each hurdle and do a hokey-pokey before continuing.
That 'line in the sand' you are looking for is found by understanding the nature of the purpose behind a particular exercise. If you don't understand it (at either extreme of the pendulum swing), you have conversations with people which pretty much go exactly as your examples.Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
"Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken
My Bullshido fan club threads:
Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
ATTN TOM KAGAN
World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
2/23/2007 5:05pm, #3
I think some people are looking for the perfect technique. The technique that can't be countered.
2/23/2007 11:06pm, #4
Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
- Join Date
- Sep 2006
- Ontario, Canada
Also there was one in the Ninja Turtles series.
Excellent question, KempoFist. After all, we here at Bullshido frequently look at a move and say "that won't work" but then turn around and get annoyed at the people who seem to find a million "counters" for jabs or armbars.
I think one salient difference between "us" and "them" is that we know, through sparring, that our moves work (and are happy to demonstrate it)."[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
-A.J. Newton, Boxing.
2/23/2007 11:50pm, #5
- Join Date
- May 2006
You mentioned gaining ability KempoFist, and I think that's really the crux of the matter. There are many techniques (in every game) that people aren't going to develop. They may not be very good at them (due to size and/or strength, injuries, etc.), or they may just not have a taste for a particular movement (take kickboxers who are more or less boxers who don't mind getting kicked during a match).
To say one technique won't work because I can do X or Y is fine, but the fight/match is longer than one move, and often learning how one move is countered will better the strategy for the next move. BJJ and other styles that set up the training to present that continuity are the primary difference between 'us' and 'them'. And I'm happy saying that as I used to be 'them' but am now and 'us'.
And if you're not good enough to do something well, then you should still have an instructor that can happily 'take you to school' with the move.
2/24/2007 1:01am, #6
2/24/2007 1:09am, #7
We do compliant drills in BJJ, but there is a big difference between that and doing dead patterns like catching punches and doing standing wristlocks: The BJJ techniques have been found to work in competition and sparring whereas "kempo technique of the day" has probably never been seen to work under similar conditions. The better gyms and coaches use the "I" method. Most lemon martial arts steer clear of this training modality, because they would never get passed the first "I", or spend six months on it then go onto something else and hope that you forgot.
2/24/2007 1:38am, #8
What is the defining line?
Answer: Does it work? Could I pull it off
"The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. Itís the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
2/24/2007 5:12am, #9
If it's the simple techniques from combat sports that are winning the fights what chance do exotic techniques from a dead style have?
2/24/2007 5:41am, #10But where is the line drawn on when it's fair to criticize, or when you're just a noob who isn't good enough yet? If you're new to MA, you may not be able to tell the difference between good and poor techniques, and I feel too many people like that are being suckered by BS artists who use the same talking points as Alive training schools.
In a broader context, if you see people who you know practice a given technique, and they never ever apply it in sparring or competition, it's probably not worth bothering.
As far as possible counters are concerned, a good instructor should point them out to you himself, along with ways to prevent them.There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)