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  1. Ke?poFist is offline
    Ke?poFist's Avatar

    Enforcer of Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc.

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 2:56pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kaju, BJJ, Judo, Kempo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    "That won't work!" Slippery Slope?

    Taken from the people in your dojo thread that got me thinking...

    Quote Originally Posted by Patfromlogan
    Mr. That Won't Work:

    Guy that interrupts the instructor by pointing out how you can counter or twist out of a technique. Often told by instructors that there are counters and evasion moves for almost any technique and told to shut up. Sometimes Mr. That Won't Work shuts up, but usually goes back to watching Kung-fu movies or the UFC, where he can perfect his knowledge better.
    What is the defining line between as Matt would say, a "lemon" technique, and a good one? Is there even a line? Clearly alot of people here have backgrounds in crappy training and learned crappy techniques. I think we'd all agree that elbowing the spine as a takedown defense, and trapping the hands instead of clinching aren't high percentage or viable techniques. But where's the line?

    This is often a cop-out I heard in my Kempo days, and I'm sure it's widespread through every style of MA there is....

    Me: "Why are we teaching this technique? It won't work because of X, Y, Z..."
    Response: "Well, you are not good enough at it/there is always a counter to the move/the moves aren't set in stone so you can modify them to suit the situation.

    Ironically, every argument I use to explain how "alive training" is good, was countered with paying lip service to those same ideals, talking points, and comparison to my BJJ training (which always seemed to be an unspoken sore point)

    For example, when I'd criticize the dead drilling of a technique, they'd compare that to dead drilling I'd do at BJJ. When I'd criticize a technique not playing out live, they'd compare it to me not being able to pull submissions or techniques learned in BJJ textbook at will either.

    Anyway, to sum it up, I've learned some things in BJJ that I know I just won't use. Whether it's because it's a low percentage technique or because I'm not advanced enough is a rather moot point. I know that the environment in which I am training is healthy and I am gaining ability even if every technique isn't useful to me. But where is the line drawn on when it's fair to criticize, or when you're just a noob who isn't good enough yet? If you're new to MA, you may not be able to tell the difference between good and poor techniques, and I feel too many people like that are being suckered by BS artists who use the same talking points as Alive training schools.
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  2. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 3:13pm

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are people who observe the 100 meter hurdle event and don't get why you can't just step to the side and run a 100 meter dash instead.

    There are also people who observe the 100 meter hurdle event and don't get why you shouldn't stop between each hurdle and do a hokey-pokey before continuing.

    That 'line in the sand' you are looking for is found by understanding the nature of the purpose behind a particular exercise. If you don't understand it (at either extreme of the pendulum swing), you have conversations with people which pretty much go exactly as your examples.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 5:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think some people are looking for the perfect technique. The technique that can't be countered.
  4. Epicurus is offline

    I'm grindin' 'till I'm tired...

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:06pm


     Style: Judo. Some BJJ/Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ojgsxr6
    I think some people are looking for the perfect technique. The technique that can't be countered.
    Oh, the crane kick!

    Also there was one in the Ninja Turtles series.


    Excellent question, KempoFist. After all, we here at Bullshido frequently look at a move and say "that won't work" but then turn around and get annoyed at the people who seem to find a million "counters" for jabs or armbars.

    I think one salient difference between "us" and "them" is that we know, through sparring, that our moves work (and are happy to demonstrate it).
    "[Fighting for Points] is doubtless very pretty, and invariably draws applause, but preferences should always be given to blows that do some business, to good straight hits that do something toward finishing the fight.
    A man who has carefully trained for brilliant tapping play, will find himself considerably out of it in case he is called upon to do any real work."
    -A.J. Newton, Boxing.
  5. Lv1Sierpinski is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:50pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You mentioned gaining ability KempoFist, and I think that's really the crux of the matter. There are many techniques (in every game) that people aren't going to develop. They may not be very good at them (due to size and/or strength, injuries, etc.), or they may just not have a taste for a particular movement (take kickboxers who are more or less boxers who don't mind getting kicked during a match).

    To say one technique won't work because I can do X or Y is fine, but the fight/match is longer than one move, and often learning how one move is countered will better the strategy for the next move. BJJ and other styles that set up the training to present that continuity are the primary difference between 'us' and 'them'. And I'm happy saying that as I used to be 'them' but am now and 'us'.

    And if you're not good enough to do something well, then you should still have an instructor that can happily 'take you to school' with the move.
  6. blindfury is offline
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    Master of the Shrimp

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 1:01am

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I agree with Epicurious.
  7. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 1:09am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We do compliant drills in BJJ, but there is a big difference between that and doing dead patterns like catching punches and doing standing wristlocks: The BJJ techniques have been found to work in competition and sparring whereas "kempo technique of the day" has probably never been seen to work under similar conditions. The better gyms and coaches use the "I" method. Most lemon martial arts steer clear of this training modality, because they would never get passed the first "I", or spend six months on it then go onto something else and hope that you forgot.
  8. jkdbuck76 is offline
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    Here, hold these for me.

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 1:38am

    Join us... or die
     Style: jkd concepts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What is the defining line?

    Answer: Does it work? Could I pull it off
    under stress?
    SEANBABY:
    "The seventh law of thermodynamics is that every time a fat person gets near a trapdoor, they fall in. Itís the closest thing we have to scientific proof of God."
  9. Virus is offline
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    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 5:12am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If it's the simple techniques from combat sports that are winning the fights what chance do exotic techniques from a dead style have?
  10. Beatdown Richie is offline
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    game dog

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 5:41am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    But where is the line drawn on when it's fair to criticize, or when you're just a noob who isn't good enough yet? If you're new to MA, you may not be able to tell the difference between good and poor techniques, and I feel too many people like that are being suckered by BS artists who use the same talking points as Alive training schools.
    In alive arts, you can draw on other people's experience as well. When my instructor introduces a new throw (like a fireman's carry version a while ago), I sometimes wonder if that's a good move at all. Then I watch him catch everyone else (including me) with that move five times in two minutes of sparring, and I figure, "it does seem to work when you're good enough at it, let's work on that some more". I still have the option of deciding that the technique won't work for me, and discarding it.

    In a broader context, if you see people who you know practice a given technique, and they never ever apply it in sparring or competition, it's probably not worth bothering.

    As far as possible counters are concerned, a good instructor should point them out to you himself, along with ways to prevent them.
    There are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. (Strategy game truism)
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