A bit about my eclectic style of kung fu--Wun Hop Kuen Do

[SifuJason]

You are very correct. I wasn't looking to see if they had solved the puzzle of multiple opponent, but more asking if they took into consideration teaching the differences to students as they grow in training.

I am always amazed at how many people never learn that what may work on one guy, might get you slaughtered by two.

This is especially true for weapon-defense techniques.

There is a bit of WHKD in Colorado if you are in Denver. Sifu Ben is a 5th degree in the system and is quite good.

[Tom Kagan]

Jason -

A quick question. Are there allowances built into such things as "critical distance line" and "bridging the gap" for multiple opponents? From my experience, a 1on1 street fight is a very rare occurance. Above you did specifically mention two people fighting.

Thanks!

Even in an all out melee, the nature of fighting is one on one. The added stress of dealing with more than one person is one thing, but those who think otherwise have been watching one too many movies.

I am always amazed at how many people never learn that what may work on one guy, might get you slaughtered by two.

I'm always amazed at the how many people never learn that if they intend to deal with more than one guy, maybe they might want to learn how to deal with one guy of skill first.


Okay, I'm trolling you just a little bit. But, if you could, will you elaborate on what you see "will get you slaughtered by two" that those one on one people don't know about and/or never realize is an issue?

[thaibox]

Hi Tom,

I wasn't saying that 1on1 people were not aware or didn't realize. I was refering to such things as with one opponent you can close, do what you need to and hopfully get out without really having to worry if by closing you made sure that one of your opponents was between you and the other opponent. Or a quick evaluation of your situation would determine that closing and using opponent 1 as a body shield against opponent 2 would be better then just trying to hit 1 and then shift to 2.

As you stated above, it is of primary importance to train to be able to "handle" one person of skill. But I think that even during a 1on1, you need to be prepared mentally and tactically for the chance of another person joining the frey at any moment.

What brought this question about? This past weekend I saw a couple guys going at it outside a bar. About 30 seconds into the fight one of the guy's friends walked up (in plain sight of everyone, including the combatants) and clocked the other guy. I heard the clockee afterwards say to his friend that he never even saw the second guy comming.

[thaibox]

Jason -

Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. I am north of Denver. Is your fellow instructor downtown or elsewhere?

[Ke?poFist]

Actually, as a street art, WHKD spends a lot of time on multi-man. For your black belt, you have to spar 10 on 1 (other people are mid-to low belts) at heavy contact. Crippling strikes are simulated of course (a kick near the knee results in the person acting as if their knee ligaments are broken, etc), but beyond that, it's as realistic as you can get.

If you can't take out your opponents, you don't get your belt.

Consequently, critical distance line and bridging the gap are taught as universal concepts, with direct applications to multi-man. In a multi-man situation, one must consider the critical distance line of all your opponents at once, and bridging the gap involves a lot of "mental calculus" to determine which paths provide the minimum "total gap" that must be bridge in order to strike an opponent--ie which way will put me in the least line of fire.

I believe we've disagreed on this in the past over the multiple opponents training, but good on ya for gearing up and going at it with hard sparring to execute it rather than compliant demonstrations.

[Tom Kagan]

What brought this question about? This past weekend I saw a couple guys going at it outside a bar. About 30 seconds into the fight one of the guy's friends walked up (in plain sight of everyone, including the combatants) and clocked the other guy. I heard the clockee afterwards say to his friend that he never even saw the second guy comming.

Sorry, I don't see this as any different a situation than getting cold cocked by just one person when there was no fight yet started. I'm still don't see what you are talking about that would be specific to fighting more than one person within the points your are trying to make as I understand them.

Do you think you could either take a stab at what you think I might be missing here and/or come up with a better example to help me understand what you have in mind?

[SifuJason]

Jason -

Sorry, didn't mean to hi-jack your thread. I am north of Denver. Is your fellow instructor downtown or elsewhere?

No worries, it happens.

His website is: http://groups.msn.com/nubreedmartial...pgmarket=en-us

His contact info should be on there, and you can ask him yourself, as I have no idea where exactly he lives.

[SifuJason]

I believe we've disagreed on this in the past over the multiple opponents training, but good on ya for gearing up and going at it with hard sparring to execute it rather than compliant demonstrations.

Yup, we have. All I can say is give me a few months down here to get enough students and a video cam, and I'll put it on You Tube. Also, if you ask around about WHKD and my Sifu, Al Dacascos, the multi-man aspects come up--if you want some other witnesses.

[thaibox]

Tom...interesting. The more I think about what you said above, the more I am inclined to agree with you, specifically concerning the fight I watched.

I can take a stab at it...but not sure how successful I will be :)

Approaching this from another way, tactics aside. Mentally, from people I have talked too, they feel that if they have more the one opponent that no matter how good they are against one, they will not win (whatever win means in a streetfight). I was trained that in multiple opponent, that just because 2 or more guys are fighting together the chances are great they have not trained to fight together. Thus, most likely will end up working against eachother. If for example you can create a weak link in your opponents (ie..hurt him but leave him standing) you can use him against the rest later. You don't have to consider this in a 1on1 situation.

We obviously have a different thought process on the differences between single and multiple opponent situations. That may be a result of different styles or simply different experiences in life. Thanks for taking the time to help me understand where you are comming from. Don't think I explained myself very well, but hey...at least I didn't pull a forum noob tuck tail and run :)

[thaibox]

No worries, it happens.

His website is: http://groups.msn.com/nubreedmartial...pgmarket=en-us

His contact info should be on there, and you can ask him yourself, as I have no idea where exactly he lives.

Thanks Jason -

I am always interested in learning new and interesting things.