Two-Man forms are not "drills"

**lee** · Posted On: 3/20/2007 6:36pm

in our case the oldtimers in pak mei dont do two man forms . l have been told they were mostly to keep new students longer . untill my ci-gung died who was president of the pak mei association. this brought about younger ones wanting to open the door to a money making enterprise. so the assocation broke into two. this is when two man forms seem to have appeared . l dont believe in them for this reason it teaches you to expect the expected. so when training for fighting if the opponent does something that resembles ever so slightly what they do in the set it is likeley thats how they will react. then get hit . you have to train to expect everything possible and example years ago some younger than myself learned at a famous club in chinatown in TO. they asked me at a tournement what belt should they compete in , there forms were as the young say awesum but l sent them into yellow belt for fighting and they lost. after l sent them to tony fasccetti (names spelled wrong probably ) who along with wally sloki was awesum to learn to use what they did do. they started to win. you can just like any boxing club can teach fighting from the beginning l did for years.

**dwhomp** · Posted On: 3/20/2007 7:35pm

Originally Posted by lee

in our case the oldtimers in pak mei dont do two man forms . l have been told they were mostly to keep new students longer . untill my ci-gung died who was president of the pak mei association. this brought about younger ones wanting to open the door to a money making enterprise. so the assocation broke into two. this is when two man forms seem to have appeared . l dont believe in them for this reason it teaches you to expect the expected. so when training for fighting if the opponent does something that resembles ever so slightly what they do in the set it is likeley thats how they will react. then get hit . you have to train to expect nothing youve seen and example years ago some younger than myself learned at a famous club in chinatown in TO. they asked me at a tournement what belt should they compete in , there forms were as the young say awesum but l sent them into yellow belt for fighting and they lost. after l sent them to tony fasccetti (names spelled wrong probably ) who along with wally sloki was awesum to learn to use what they did do. they started to win. you can just like any boxing club can teach fighting from the beginning l did for years.

I dont mean to be rude if English is not the primary language, but Huh?

**lee** · Posted On: 3/20/2007 7:47pm

l will try to make it simpler no offense intended . l believe that when one does two man forms over and over you will under some circumstances react to a stimulous that may appear to be the same when its not. then get hit. l teach alive so as to teach not to predetermine . does that explain it. the two young ones from aclub that used a lot of two man forms couldnt apply anything well enough becuase of spending all kinds of time doing a two man form. but doing a drill to perfect a combination is just a training method. two man forms dont change you may have a few but it doesnt l believe teach to react in a realistic manner.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 3/21/2007 9:50am

Wha?

I'm sorry, personnally, I didn't much more from it than from the first post.

You're saying that you teach two-man forms split into alive drills, and that doing long two-man forms really shouldn't be a significant part of training because it might make your responses predictable and easy to "fool" (if you know someone has been taught to react a certain way to a certain attack, you could, for instance, fake it and catch them off-guard.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 3/21/2007 10:09am

Originally Posted by lee

l will try to make it simpler no offense intended . l believe that when one does two man forms over and over you will under some circumstances react to a stimulous that may appear to be the same when its not. then get hit. l teach alive so as to teach not to predetermine . does that explain it. the two young ones from aclub that used a lot of two man forms couldnt apply anything well enough becuase of spending all kinds of time doing a two man form. but doing a drill to perfect a combination is just a training method. two man forms dont change you may have a few but it doesnt l believe teach to react in a realistic manner.

Forgive me Mr. Lee, I'm going to explain it the way I understand. If I'm wrong please correct me.

Basically, Mr Lee is saying that long 2-man sets will cause you to react incorrectly to certain stimuli. If I throw something that looks like a right hook, yet it isn't, you may react incorrectly and get hit because of "muscle memory."

He uses short drills as opposed to a long 2-man set.

**lee** · Posted On: 3/21/2007 10:37am

quizzy and it is fake you both got it right , finaly someone understood. l will admit l am better to articulate than to write it. l guess thats why l have a phone on my computer ,l can call all over north america for a flat rate,