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  1. Killing Moon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 11:53am


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Two-Man forms are not "drills"

    Now this “discussion” began on two man forms within a CMA. Before I even began training more with Sanshou and Submission Wrestling, I was fully aware of how ineffective two-man forms may be. Really, other than for choreographing to impress an audience, I’ve never seen much use for them.

    I’ve already given two examples here [in the discussion], but maybe I’m missing something (or banging my head against a wall, possibly).
    What’s you guys/gals take on it?



    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/for...49#post1097349
  2. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 11:54am


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I work on my guard passing and defending the arm bar. There are several steps involved.

    Am I working a short two man form because my partner is initiating an attack on me that I am defending?

    What are your definitions for this.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  3. Wataboxa is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 11:59am


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think two main drills are helpful. I don't quite see them as any different then say a two man drill where one man holds a focus mitt and the other works on various punches or strikes. I think they have there place.
  4. Killing Moon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:07pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh I understand two man DRILLS. But what they’re describing aren’t drills, they’re two man FORMS (which are unfortunately fairly common in CMAs). I was going through that difference with them, gave video examples (pg.2), yet they continue to describe what they’re doing as a drill. When what seems to really being done is an elongated form or choreography.

    Somewhere down the line they tried to change the definition from two-man forms or “sparring” forms (WTF?!!) into two man drills.
    Does anyone here see the bullshit, or am I buggin’ out?
  5. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:11pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    you can drill anything.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  6. Askari is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:13pm


     Style: BJJ, Ju-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Without reading another MAP thread of kata-strophy. I would venture to say that I am not more bothered by two man forms then by one man forms.

    There are a lot of two man forms in Jiu-Jitsu and Judo and Japanese MA in general. Just as there are a bunch in CMA.

    The stupid forms competitions we see today with music etc, are no more fight oriented then a gymnastics competition. But so long as they dont tell you that it makes them teh d3adly street fighter, then its not inherintly evil.

    However, if someone claims that a musical kata, or two man form makes them a super fighter, then call them on it.

    I dont have a giant use for kata myself, but those who practice TMA seem to.
    "Sifu, I"m niether - I'm a fire dragon so don't **** with me!"
  7. Tomas Drgon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:18pm


     Style: n/a

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Two man sets CAN be useful.

    I used to practice two 2 man striking sets of Han Bai Kung Fu, I did it because they were in the curiculum but I did not find them very beneficial. I have also done a staff 2 man set of Han Bai and I felt that one was useful, more useful that the one man staff form.

    Definitely by far the most useful 2 man set I have practised is the Nage No Kata of Kodokan Judo. Yes, it is not "alive", there's no resistance and the strikes are poor, BUT it is a great exercise in the mechanics of the throws. All the throws (may be with the exception of uki otoshi, the first one) are competitive throws that have been performed thousands of times in competitions. I'd consider it a "drill".

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7hDH_KHf9o

    Tomas
    Last edited by Tomas Drgon; 2/21/2007 12:23pm at .
  8. Killing Moon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:21pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Askari
    Without reading another MAP thread of kata-strophy. I would venture to say that I am not more bothered by two man forms then by one man forms.

    There are a lot of two man forms in Jiu-Jitsu and Judo and Japanese MA in general. Just as there are a bunch in CMA.

    The stupid forms competitions we see today with music etc, are no more fight oriented then a gymnastics competition. But so long as they dont tell you that it makes them teh d3adly street fighter, then its not inherintly evil.

    However, if someone claims that a musical kata, or two man form makes them a super fighter, then call them on it.

    I dont have a giant use for kata myself, but those who practice TMA seem to.
    This herein is the problem.
    The claim is that somehow two man forms will help hone your fighting skill or will somehow make you a good fighter.

    Here lies the bullshit, people.

    THIS is a two man form that they're speaking of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0T9XmHAn94
    Last edited by Killing Moon; 2/21/2007 12:31pm at .
  9. Wataboxa is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:22pm


     Style: Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's just a play on words. Like I mentioned earlier even when boxing you may train specific combinations while, your partner may duck or parry without launching a menacing attack.. I think this is similar to training specific CMA moves in two man sparring, forms or drills. How each school may train these sets maybe a better question. When I trained in Shaolin Kung Fu our two man drills where to build forearm strength and to condition. When I trained In Hung Gar it was slightly a different approach. We used the two man drills to condition reflexes, perfect certain strikes and foot structures. So, it's all a matter of what the instrutor is trying to have the students gain when doing these Drill, Forms or Sparring sets.
  10. Killing Moon is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:35pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Wataboxa
    I think it's just a play on words. Like I mentioned earlier even when boxing you may train specific combinations while, your partner may duck or parry without launching a menacing attack.. I think this is similar to training specific CMA moves in two man sparring, forms or drills. How each school may train these sets maybe a better question. When I trained in Shaolin Kung Fu our two man drills where to build forearm strength and to condition. When I trained In Hung Gar it was slightly a different approach. We used the two man drills to condition reflexes, perfect certain strikes and foot structures. So, it's all a matter of what the instrutor is trying to have the students gain when doing these Drill, Forms or Sparring sets.
    See, that’s what the delimma seemed to be. I was making sure that the subject of sets or drills weren’t into play. I’ve been to plenty of MA schools were two man sets were used to refine skills. But by their description, an entire sparring FORM was described (which I’ve seen alotta’ times).



    Much more than a short, randomized or even repeated drill.
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