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  1. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 5:24pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay I've been thinking about this grip for a bit now. It's very "gimmicky" in that it's not one you're going to use time in and time out, it'll get thrown out to mix things up.

    The big problem I see is that you mostly fight right handers. Against a right hander this grip is giving them complete access to over your back and your sleeve. You're left very vulnerable to uchi-mata or harai. You can somewhat block with your head but since you're taking the underhook on their dominant (right) hand side against a strong gripper you're essentially GIVING them your head. You're also pretty vulnerable to being taken backwards since he can easily take your back with his right hand and wrap you up with his left to enter into a tani-o-toshi type throw.

    The big problem with this grip is you have absolutely no control over his arms. You're gripping only his torso which is good for your offense but he has complete free reign of his arms. Your underhook leaves your back open which combined with the free hands is a problem.

    The grip is probably designed to get in and attack immediately. You really need to use it that way. If you sit there for a second or two you're oging to be in trouble once your opponent figures out he can actually attack you very effectively.

    O-uchi is a big disaster for either of you in this grip. You'd be coming in low with his hand free to come over your back. As soon as you step in he's going to right power over your back and launch you. You can essentially do the same thing if he comes in o-uchi though so it's kind of a wash as long as you remember not to try it against a good opponent.

    It's an interesting grip but its probably more dangerous to you than your opponent. As well, if you're a noob you need to focus on the basics at first. Concentrating on gimmicky and unorthodox styles in the beginning is going to work well against other noobs but the higher level opponents won't fall for them as easily. These type of grips are fine once and awhile but work your basics first and foremost.
  2. ONE TWO THREE FOUR FIVE is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 5:46pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Judobum
    Okay I've been thinking about this grip for a bit now. It's very "gimmicky" in that it's not one you're going to use time in and time out, it'll get thrown out to mix things up.

    The big problem I see is that you mostly fight right handers. Against a right hander this grip is giving them complete access to over your back and your sleeve. You're left very vulnerable to uchi-mata or harai. You can somewhat block with your head but since you're taking the underhook on their dominant (right) hand side against a strong gripper you're essentially GIVING them your head. You're also pretty vulnerable to being taken backwards since he can easily take your back with his right hand and wrap you up with his left to enter into a tani-o-toshi type throw.

    The big problem with this grip is you have absolutely no control over his arms. You're gripping only his torso which is good for your offense but he has complete free reign of his arms. Your underhook leaves your back open which combined with the free hands is a problem.

    The grip is probably designed to get in and attack immediately. You really need to use it that way. If you sit there for a second or two you're oging to be in trouble once your opponent figures out he can actually attack you very effectively.

    O-uchi is a big disaster for either of you in this grip. You'd be coming in low with his hand free to come over your back. As soon as you step in he's going to right power over your back and launch you. You can essentially do the same thing if he comes in o-uchi though so it's kind of a wash as long as you remember not to try it against a good opponent.

    It's an interesting grip but its probably more dangerous to you than your opponent. As well, if you're a noob you need to focus on the basics at first. Concentrating on gimmicky and unorthodox styles in the beginning is going to work well against other noobs but the higher level opponents won't fall for them as easily. These type of grips are fine once and awhile but work your basics first and foremost.
    I have a hell of a lot less experience than you so if you say so then I'll agree with you but just a couple of points:

    1) I'm a stocky guy and I find myself in something like this position fairly frequently so I don't think it's gimmicky, plus my instructor tells me it's a good strong grip to look for ina fight <Shrug> I guess I'll use it when it presents itself but not focus on it specifically and maybe ask my instructor about it because it does seem to work well for me.

    2) O Uchi Gari isn't a problem for the guy establishing this grip, only for the other. The head in the collar stops the other guy from coming in to get any body contact for the throw, at least thats how I've found it.

    Other than that, what you've said is scarily close to ebing exactly what I was taught in the lesson about this grip and what I've found when using it over the last couple of weeks.

    :bowdown:
  3. roly is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 10:32pm


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    2) O Uchi Gari isn't a problem for the guy establishing this grip, only for the other. The head in the collar stops the other guy from coming in to get any body contact for the throw, at least thats how I've found it.
    you may be in for a suprise in the future if this is what you choose to believe. practice your breakfalling from uchi mata just in case
  4. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 10:57pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slindsay
    I have a hell of a lot less experience than you so if you say so then I'll agree with you but just a couple of points:

    1) I'm a stocky guy and I find myself in something like this position fairly frequently so I don't think it's gimmicky, plus my instructor tells me it's a good strong grip to look for ina fight <Shrug> I guess I'll use it when it presents itself but not focus on it specifically and maybe ask my instructor about it because it does seem to work well for me.

    2) O Uchi Gari isn't a problem for the guy establishing this grip, only for the other. The head in the collar stops the other guy from coming in to get any body contact for the throw, at least thats how I've found it.

    Other than that, what you've said is scarily close to ebing exactly what I was taught in the lesson about this grip and what I've found when using it over the last couple of weeks.

    :bowdown:
    I'm a stocky guy too (5' 8", 190 or so) and I typically use a variation of this grip. I think the underhook grip is fine but the lapel grip is the problem. Switch that to a sleeve grip and you're much better off. The problem with the lapel girp is you have no control over the opponents arm. With a sleeve grip you get a better feel for what your opponent is doing and if they attack you can rip their grip away and spin out of throws. The lapel girp puts you in tighter but unless you attack immediately it puts you at a disadvantage IMHO. My favorite grip is under the arm to about the middle back and sleeve grip. I mainly use uchi-mata and leg picks from there.

    In this position it's a very bad idea for either person to do o-uchi. You both will have a strong grip on the opponent's back, yours under, his over. If he tries to come in on you you will absolutely launch him with an ura-nage. This is a spot where the other guy will actually feel like it might work but it's the worst time. Likewise if you come in when he's got an overgrip on your back he'll counter and use that grip to drag you down. You should NEVER, EVER do o-uchi if you opponent has a hold of your back unless you want to practice your breakfalls.

    Like I said, the problem with this grip is not taking a sleeve. You're leaving the other guy way too much play with his arms and leaving yourself open for throws. If someone took this grip on me I would immediately take the overgrip and come in for uchi-mata. All I have to do is take the overgrip onto your back with my right hand, grip your sleeve with my left (easy since it's sitting on my lapel) and turn into it. Your head won't stop that because it'll slide off when your opponent turns in for the throw and you can't really stop the sleeve hand because you'll be tied up on the lapel. Be ready for this if you use this grip. You can try a sukashi or try to side step the sweeping leg and do a pick. It's risky though.
  5. Red Sauce is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 3:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the "take-home" from this thread for you is to work on getting your basics right first before trying low percentage stuff like all-torso grip setups, this kind of risky grip is something I see noobs do when their gassed out and think they are making it difficult for me to throw them, but normally if they're in so close/head down AND don't have any of my sleeves, I'm gonna take my pick with what I want to do with you, if your stocky/ top heavy I'll be looking at hip throws or ways in and out of uchimata, if its a contest and your the same weight as me, I'll be breaking off grips and going for some drop forward throws.
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