Chi Gerk and equivalents

[Mut Sao]

To my knowledge, the use of 'sensitivity training' like chi gerk is a VERY Wing Chung idea, and I don't think it really crops up in other CMAs.

ummmm..... i think the point that other systems have leg sensitivity training has been made already, The examples of the _in _un chigerk are not that different from many of the things from other arts (at least in principle) maybe you should read the thread before posting such dribble.... again it has been mentioned in several posts already that leg sensitivity is practiced in other CMA.... as is Chi Sao.... just not in the same manner as in _in _un.... FWIW some chi sao / gerk training can actually translate into free sparring.

[dwhomp]

From http://www.awcaonline.com/forms/chigerk.html - Chi-gerk Section 1 Attack

1. As the opponent begins to kick, the defender drives in with Jeet-gerk ("Jamming-kick/ Stop-kick") to the attacker's weight-bearing leg.



2. The kick itself is still coming in, though, so Jeet-gerk immediately transitions to Bong-gerk ("Wing-leg").



3. From Bong-gerk, we lash out with Wang-chang-gerk ("Side Thrusting-kick") and follow up with chain-punching, etc.



The second one does not make any sense to me at all. Why would the attacker kick that way (other than to illustrate how it'd get blocked with bong gerk)? :icon_scra

The first one make some sense, but then again why not go to #3 right off the bat? Why not evade the kick, or close the distance and attack (push kick, roundhouse, clinch and pummel the **** out of him)? I'm asking in earnest what I think it's an honest question. If it's not within the topic of this thread, please ignore. :tongue3:

I might be able to help with the second kick purpose...

At an old school, I used to spar with a Wing Chun guy, solid fighter. He would throw that kick very fast to the ribs to jam ya up. It always hurt, but not the first, the second, at about 5-6 they really started to hurt the ole ribs. He used that against out resident golden gloves boxer all the time

That kick is also quite stable from a structure standpoint. While I have never used it in the way shown, I have trained it as a stepping crush type of kick because the structure of it is solid and it leads into the Xing Yi "coiling"; I like it quite a bit

[socratic]

I disagree it is over focused in Wing chun. It exists in other arts in a similar fashion.

Yes, I'm looking for examples as we speak.

No, they aren't going to look exactly like the Wing Chun.

Cool.

ummmm..... i think the point that other systems have leg sensitivity training has been made already, The examples of the _in _un chigerk are not that different from many of the things from other arts (at least in principle) maybe you should read the thread before posting such dribble.... again it has been mentioned in several posts already that leg sensitivity is practiced in other CMA.... as is Chi Sao.... just not in the same manner as in _in _un.... FWIW some chi sao / gerk training can actually translate into free sparring.

I didn't mean leg senstivity training in its totality, I was running with the idea of one's legs touching and the 'sticky' motions, as indicated by the sources. Anyways, my bad.

[Tom Kagan]

I might be able to help with the second kick purpose...

At an old school, I used to spar with a Wing Chun guy, solid fighter. He would throw that kick very fast to the ribs to jam ya up. It always hurt, but not the first, the second, at about 5-6 they really started to hurt the ole ribs. He used that against out resident golden gloves boxer all the time

That kick is also quite stable from a structure standpoint. While I have never used it in the way shown, I have trained it as a stepping crush type of kick because the structure of it is solid and it leads into the Xing Yi "coiling"; I like it quite a bit

Which frame in that example are you referring to? It's not clear to me from your post.

[Dr._Tzun_Tzu]

Answer: No, Only WT has WT chi Gerk. No one else comes close to having the same prinicple based system through Form/Drill/Spar based around Chi Sau Sections.

The answer in WT is to attack. So in training, we are not so bold as to think every attack will always be successful, so we set up sensitivity drills for the various possible outcomes. While Tomass D is correct in his funny about it being a drill, it ignores the reason we have set up drills to practice specific possibilitys.

Evading, movement, side stepping are all fine, when you have room, and don't mind abandoning your fellows, loved ones, children, or whoever else you are defending. The drills in question are for when you can not evade, or have FAILED to evade, and find yourself in kicking range. Even if you do evade, you still must COME BACK INTO KICKING RANGE to kick them. So the drill is about kicking in range of their kicks.

As I said, when in kicking range, kick them (Standing leg target). Now if you are successful then they fall down. This type of kick you practice on a wallbag, post, dummy, hanging bag, and in the Air, FULL POWER, or try to apply freely in sparing and freestyle drills.

If you are not perfect, then sometimes their kick intercepts yours, and so to "feel" that situation you have the set up drill in image 2. The slant kick in the image (both 1 and 2) is an _ing __un kick, but it servers the purpose of preventing the painfull shin on shin contact in the drill image two.(edit:and starting with slant kick allows you to rotate into bong gerk) We are concerned here more with the guy on the lefts sensitivity.

The side kick in the third image springs out from the bong Gerk. It is not the primary kick because to do it you must rotate the hips and torso, comprimising the "squared up" effect we like in the upper torso. The slant kick allows the torso to stay square and the foot crosses the centerline at 45 degrees offering a great chance of intercepting both vertically and horizontally.

That being said, WT has a lifting leg kick, Man Gerk, which acts in the same way as Man Sau, but for the leg, which is rotated like a side kick, but not so far as to cuase the hips to rotate too. It lifts from the hip socket with the leg being in the same set of angles as it is in IRAS or in Character 1 stance (WT Back Stance). It can be seen here, starting at 2:02. (sorry you will have to wait through Dr. Leungs comedy routine about striking first and a Female technitian that is not Korean).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6oYA...52173&index=43

This is the "Universal Answer" to most all attacks*, and WT Chi Gerk drills in their various forms are to train the feeling of the leg for this movement. At 2:46 you can see he kicks SlipperShorts standing leg and the hip socket, gets alittle groin smashing in to, has the bong Gerk shape to wedge away the kick from the other leg, and his leg is still bent so he can now add a thrust kick into the SlipperShorts hip. (man I hated wearing those slippers, I think Ting mostly has them wear them to mock William Cheungs excuses)

As to the sweeping stuff, we practice a different Chi Gerk drill, seen here at 1:59 (sorry you again have to wait through some Leung Ting Comedy routines):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq3H3...52173&index=17

at 1:36 is some free sparring with leg jamming and the real use of the slant kick from above(at 1:41)(edit: I call this the Golf Club leg slant kick). But next I am talking about the drill at 1:59.

that is for the sensitivity when the legs are jammed together or for knee to knee action in the clinch range. There is some overlap to the kicking drills and the root movements and reactions are the same as far as sensitivity goes. So as Tom K said, we don't really have sweeps like in other MA, but more of sweep counter drills so we can get back to jamming and kicking. A sweep for us would be to lock on leg with a jam, ghost kick around to the back and kick the other leg out as we pull you down, but it is very difficult and hard to do. So our sweeps are just basicly kicking out your legs!!

and then there is the ninja police after that.

finally, at :39 in this one Henning bong jerks into kick in the clinch range, then knees as the guy falls down into it. Can anyone else see the 100/0 weight distribution.

For fun, I re-present my favorite of all time, filled with many demonstrations of the concepts above, and even a comment from Djimbe!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM676...elated&search=

always remember that for WT, sensitivty drill means an attempt at conditioning muscle memory for when ATTACKS run into resistance.

*"Universal Answer" should read "starting point for all defending with attacks, via a punch and kick. If either strike works, great, but more important, the two limbs are feelers and all of our reactions come from there.

edit: also, the 8 _ing __un kicks listed in those articles are wrong. The 8 kicks each must be mechanically different. Surely their are more then 8 targets, so saying shin, foot, groin, ect.. does not cut it if all you really have is a snap kick, side kick, and thrust kick. I don't claim to actually know them all, but MY list is Thrust, Lifting leg snap(from hip socket), Side, Stomp(posture pull), Sweeping slant kick (Golf club leg), Bong/Yap Rotation (From hip), spinning slant, and knee thrust. Sometimes the famous "Through the heart kick" is #8, but I rather use the knee thrust instead. Heart kick is basically just a high slanted thrust kick so it can be made mechanically from the other ones, using the knee thrust as a base.

[It is Fake]

Answer: No, Only WT has WT chi Gerk. No one else comes close to having the same prinicple based system through Form/Drill/Spar based around Chi Sau Sections.

Wrong. Mantis, Tai Chi and Bak Mei have their versions. They aslo prescribe to your "
same prinicple based system through Form/Drill/Spar based around Chi Sau Sections."

Hell, Bak Mei and the Chun are basically joined at the hip.

Dragon style also is similar.