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  1. jnp is offline
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    Titanium laced beauty

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 8:42pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    Depends on the angle. Ideally, if I want to completely disable/cripple someone, it would be a side kick at a 45-degree angle assuming the target is open. Front kicks aren't as effective, but a Thai round kick can also work, although it's easier to counter.
    Do you believe that you could break someone's knee in this manner? Have you ever witnessed someone perform or actually performed this technique in a live situation yourself?

    I am asking this question in earnest.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  2. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 8:42pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mut Sao
    actually i would say that some stand up grapples and throws are more effiecient than the old punch to the face/ kick to the knee. depends on the situation and the outcome that you require.... certainly in the case of pre-emption strike to face kick to knee is good, but how often is that the course of a fight (pre-emption) If you are grabbed at the outset (read clinch not wrist grab please) control and lock of a joint coupled with throw can be a good option.

    It is far better to be versed in multiple ranges than to rely on one. Personally my ground game is not crash hot though it is sufficient for the str33t (whatever that is). i prefer striking and locking/tripping.... and even more so i prefer avoiding...
    I completely agree (in case you missed that part of my earlier post). Depending on what's happening, the punch/kick may not be available, and grappling is a good second option. Well-rounded fighting is essential for self-defense, that's why I study/teach a mixed system.

    Also, as I mentioned with the police example, not everything should be resolved with the same level of force.
  3. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 8:48pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    Do you believe that you could break someone's knee in this manner? Have you ever witnessed someone perform or actually performed this technique in a live situation yourself?

    I am asking this question in earnest.
    Have I personally witnessed a side kick at a 45-degree angle break someone's knee. Has my Sifu and some of my fellow black belts seen and done it, yes, many times.

    Also, I am a medical student and we have studied the dynamics of knee breaks (by knee break I mean destroying several of the ligaments at once, not shattering the knee cap), as well as breaking open a few cadavers knees. It doesn't take that much force; athletes do it all the time. The amount of force an average martial artist can generate with a sidekick is more than adequate. It's just physics. A single sidekick at the angle I am describing with break the LCL, PCL, and tear the menisces. You won't be able to push off the knee after that (without surgery), not to mention the pain. It ends fights (not assuming PCP, etc of course).

    edited for wrong ligament.
    Last edited by SifuJason; 2/20/2007 9:03pm at .
  4. bob is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 8:55pm


     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jnp
    Do you believe that you could break someone's knee in this manner? Have you ever witnessed someone perform or actually performed this technique in a live situation yourself?

    I am asking this question in earnest.
    As a physio, I've treated at least two guys who needed knee reconstructions following knee kicks in bar fights. Destroyed 2 out of their 4 main knee ligaments.

    However, from their description of events my assumption is that they were from thai style round kicks.
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 8:58pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Knee breaking is a red herring argument either way.

    Weather it breaks the knee or not a good leg kick to the knee or thigh hurts like a bitch.

    Inside/ outside leg kick combo's hurt even more.


    In a street defense situation I would try and use leg kicks as my first attack before anything else as it also is good at keep distance.

    Also I think in the Hughes / GSP fight GSP knocked Hughes down with a low kick that Hughes tried to check and it hit Hughes around the knee area (maybe a bit lower) No it didn't break Hughes leg. Yes it knocked Hughes on his ass.
  6. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 9:04pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yup, regardless of whether it breaks (which depends a lot on alignment), knee kicks are nasty and a great self-defense technique. I think side vs round is really a question of angle. However, I could have my druthers, I would go with a side, but that's just preference.
  7. Antifa is offline
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    Sin Dios! Sin amos!

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 9:23pm

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     Style: Starting Over... Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    I, and most others, never said grappling training wasn't neccesary. My position is quite the opposite really. Rather I said using my grappling as my primary method of streetfighting is not a smart move, and that as a general policy I would rather punch someone than armbar them.
    Again... missing the point.

    Rule of #1 of streetfights: Things go wrong. And what you would Rather being doing is not a topic for discussion.

    If you planned on hurting somebody, and you are in a streetfight, its because you failed at sucker-punch-fu.

    If they planned on hurting you, and you are in a streetfight, things are already going wrong.

    You are thinking about armbars, when you should be thinking about escapes. You are thinking about submission when you should be thinking about finishing.

    Secondly, what if you, for some reason or another, do not with to really hurt the dumb SOB? Guess you better submitt him then huh?

    Think it over.
  8. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 9:39pm

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     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    ...(by knee break I mean destroying several of the ligaments at once, not shattering the knee cap)
    Thank you SifuJason and bornsceptic for responding to my post. The reason I asked is I've always heard about the side kick breaking the knee, but I've never actually encountered someone who has actually pulled it off in a hostile situation.

    I think if more people defined the knee break like SifuJason does in the quote above, rather than, "Dude, I sidekicked his knee and it exploded!", there's be less criticism when the technique is mentioned.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  9. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 10:23pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ya, exploding knees aren't quite reality, except maybe with a baseball bat, and then its not some much an explosion as an implosion. Glad help demystify things.
  10. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 10:30pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Antifa
    Again... missing the point.

    Rule of #1 of streetfights: Things go wrong. And what you would Rather being doing is not a topic for discussion.

    If you planned on hurting somebody, and you are in a streetfight, its because you failed at sucker-punch-fu.

    If they planned on hurting you, and you are in a streetfight, things are already going wrong.

    You are thinking about armbars, when you should be thinking about escapes. You are thinking about submission when you should be thinking about finishing.

    Secondly, what if you, for some reason or another, do not with to really hurt the dumb SOB? Guess you better submitt him then huh?

    Think it over.
    1) stop being so arrogant, and trying to make an argument where there isn't one.


    2) I don't think I have missed the point at all, or contradicted anything you have said.

    Things go wrong all the time; all I am saying is that if I see a knee I'll take it (assuming of course I want to hurt them that badly), and that I like sidekicks over round kicks. Doesn't mean I won't do something else, or use the round kick, etc, just that if I have the choice (which I agree can be a rare luxury) I have a preference.

    I also agree that if I planned to hurt someone, the fight should be over before it has started. And yes, if I someone planned on hurting me and I am in a streetfight, then things went wrong as well, although since I am not omniscient, I can be taken by surprise and I better train to deal with that.

    I am not thinking about armbars, I wouldn't use one in a fight. I do think about escapes (remember my statement about grappling being a neccesary part of self-defense education--I better know how to escape?!).

    If I don't want to hurt them, then I submit them. You are correct. Won't be with an armbar, but as I have said before (again the police example), grappling is a neccesary skill?


    So, overall, I don't see what your issue is, because I haven't been saying anything that contradicts you, so calm down and stop being so antagonizing.
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