Kung Fu, Grappling and Cliches'

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 12:34pm

Originally Posted by SifuJason

A couple of thoughts (again no quote fest).

In regards to striking, I can see how "sloppy" may be bothersome as a term, and if you have another suggestion I would be willing to adopt it. However, I still feel my point that many MMA people have striking skills that are lacking stands. As you said, the new wave of MMA people are like GSP, who are good at everything, including striking.

As for self-defense, I am glad you agree that armbars in multi-man is a bad idea. As for throws, I have used those extensively in both practice and actual self-defense situations, and I agree they can be effective. However, if weapons or more than a few people are involved, throws can tie you up too much, and it still comes back to striking. Nothing ends a fight like a swift kick to the knee cap.

I don't know what a better term would be, but the reason i don't like the word is I have had the conversation with a Friend of mine who boxes about Chuck Liddel.

He's like "You call that elite striking"

From a boxing perspective, for boxing Chuck looks sloppy. But for the realities of MMA he is an elite level striker.

Also I was thinking about Randy, know one would call him an elite level stand up striker, however I would say he's an elite level Ground and Pound striker.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 12:43pm

Originally Posted by jnp

I'm sure many of you already know this, but for those who might not, let me say this in a clear and concise manner.

Skilled groundfighters who aren't deluded HAVE NO DESIRE to end up on the ground in a fight. If they do, they want to be on top in a dominant position. The LAST place they want to be is on their backs. Like Goju-Joe stated, most would prefer to throw their opponent to the ground while they remain standing.

That said, they spend a fair amount of time training for the, "Oh crap, I got knocked down in a fight and now some guy is climbing on top of me" kind of worst case scenario in a one-on-one weaponless fight.

Of course this is the way I feel. I think it gets lost in translation and it shouldn't. Strikers train to strike very few train to stop going to the ground. Many train to get back up in the quickest way possible but it isn't always optimal.

Grapplers train to go to the ground or so many think. Any BJJers correct me ifI'm wrong but, you train takedowns and also train how to defend them right? I know Judo may be better at this but is it the same for BJJ?

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 2:00pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake??

Of course this is the way I feel. I think it gets lost in translation and it shouldn't. Strikers train to strike very few train to stop going to the ground. Many train to get back up in the quickest way possible but it isn't always optimal.

Grapplers train to go to the ground or so many think. Any BJJers correct me ifI'm wrong but, you train takedowns and also train how to defend them right? I know Judo may be better at this but is it the same for BJJ?

Well, that's something I've debated with myself when I started. BJJers train in taking somebody down (via a takedown or a throw) in the simplest way possible while remaining in control of the situation, but most important, they train for the worst case scenario, if and when they go to the ground.

Training to throw/take somebody down and dealing with a worst-case scenario is not the same as training "to go to the ground".

The first BJJ school I went to was strictly sport-BJJ oriented, almost 0% takedown training. I don't know if that's the case now (this was almost 15 months ago). This gave me the wrong impression and missunderstanding of BJJ - I was wondering, going WTF, am I training to pull guard in a parking lot? Eventually, the answer was no. That school dealt with those questions by offering MMA classes.

Where I am now, BJJ cross-train with Judo (which is what I like the most), and as I understand other schools cross-train with wrestling and/or judo. Our school spars from an standing possition perhaps 30% of the time. As for striking, most BJJ schools have a MMA class, our school included. When they don't, the instructors still explain the need to have some basics on striking.

Going back to the original premise, about slaming or going to the ground, it all depends.

Consider osoto gari, for example. By the mechanics of it, the person being thrown WILL LAND ON HIS SHOULDER BLADES - an adult will usually land from a height of 1.5 meters. This is virtually the same as suddenly being dropped from that height on your shoulder blades.

This is a high impact fall just by acceleration due to gravity alone. By pushing the individual by his collar, you can increase that impact. Also, as Goju - Joe said, you can drive your hand on his neck, gi sleeve or face and make him land on his neck or the back of his head. No need to slam yourself over your opponent in a S/D situation.

The throw itself, when executed, is effective and high impact. In fact, it is said such types of throws must be trained with care on beginners due to the dangerous nature of it. Most judoka will follow a throw to the ground (in comps) to

1) add impact to the throw, and
2) follow it with newaza (ground work) in case they can't score an ippon.

Most throws (except the makikomi throws) when executed correctly will not require you do go down with it to achieve a high impact. Whether they can be executed correctly against a resisting opponent the same issue that can affect the proper execution of a jab or a kick.

**Hedgehogey** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 3:00pm

All of your problems could be avoided if you'd just read my thread.
www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=18221

**leere_form** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 3:20pm

El Macho has the correct again.

I think the scariest place to be in a fight would be on the ground, especially on my back.

Pretty much all I train is grappling, both standup and ground, but I would never take someone to the ground and try and pound them or submit them if it were remotely possible that they had a friend on the way. Getting mount on the first guy and then getting kicked in the head/face by the second guy is not my idea of a good time.

What I would like to do in a SD situation would be throw my attacker down as hard as I could then stomp him in the face or soccer kick him in the side of the head.

Being on the ground obviously makes you vulnerable to getting the **** kicked out of you, and that's exactly why I'd prefer the other guy be on his ass instead of me.

Anyway, I vote in favor of "standing" throws such as osoto-gari or hip throws for the face-stomping reason. It's pretty much my Plan A, for what it's worth..

**wakinonioi** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 3:52pm

Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe

Yes if the person over 300 pounds I am not going to try any throw.

That's not the point however

Hmmm, I wasn't thinking about weight really. Heavy guys who don't know what's up are easy to throw (you gotta have some big huevos to risk getting caught under them if you **** it up though). Nothing like tossing someone with 100+ lbs. on you to make a dramatic impression though!

**wakinonioi** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 3:56pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake??

Interesting point Go-JU joe. I have really no experience really in grappling training. I do find it funny that everyone assumes a judo or BJJ player's whole life is to get to the ground. Yet, the ones I do know say that in certain situations it is a last resort.

You don't want to go to the ground in a bar. Yet, that is the automatic assumption.

I think that a common misconception is that 'going to the ground' means jumping into guard only. Being 'on the ground' in top position with control over your opponent and the ability to move off where and when you want is in some cases much more desireable than just tossing them a few feet off where they are out of contact with you and unless you have somehow knocked them shitless in the process, you are just gonna have to go through it all over again.

**wakinonioi** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 3:58pm

Originally Posted by Omar

It's not fear.

It's the pleasure of standing over them like Silva standing over Anderson except also hollering, "Who's yer bitch now! Huh!?!? Get up punk! Yeah baby....."

It's all about face. :icon_thum Face...and keeping your white shirt clean. You wanna keep yelling at him, "Hey punk! You almost got my shirt dirty! pfffft.....who's the baddest!?"

Well, with a little more effort that could have been funny. I'll give you 7 points for effort, but only 2 for realistic.

**dwhomp** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 5:56pm

Ok, I will play Devil's Advocate...

there is a huge amount of similiarity in the language being used with other MA annoyances here...

"Yes, I train grappling and groundfighting, but I would NEVER want to be on the ground in a real fight. If I was in a real fight I would throw them to the ground and smack them from there"

Sounds awfully similiar to:

"Yes, I train point fighting, but if I was ever in a real fight, I would use my real life strikes and kicks that I cant use in point fighting"

It is not a light switch.

***jnp*** · Posted On: 2/19/2007 5:57pm

Originally Posted by It is Fake??

Grapplers train to go to the ground or so many think. Any BJJers correct me ifI'm wrong but, you train takedowns and also train how to defend them right? I know Judo may be better at this but is it the same for BJJ?

The short answer is yes.

In the past many groundfighting gyms didn't train hard or well enough in the takedown and clinch ranges. Still fewer taught proper atemi-waza (sp?), striking to set up takedowns.

MMA classes fill in the gaps inherent in sport groundfighting, including stand-up work and striking while on the ground.

I'm going to stop talking about non-CMA topics now.