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  1. Bugeisha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 2:37pm


     Style: Kyokushin

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    Yang Shaohou was a serious badass. Yang Chengfu went to him to learn how to improve his Taijiquan. LATER when YCF was invited to teach at the Nanjing acadamy THAT's when he simplified the form, left **** out, made it more "civil" and less "combative" just like I said in my very first post on the subject. It can well be assumed that YCF learned his grandfather's original form. He was a fucking bloodline inheritor for god's sake, BUT and this is as big a but as YCF's own prodigious posterior.....he did not teach his grandfather's or even his older brother's form at the acadamy. He created a simplified form specially for the occaion and THAT much is historical fact.
    That's the real catch, isn't it? Not that YCF didn't HAVE it, but he sure as hell didn't give it away to the public.
  2. blacktiger is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 6:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "That's the real catch, isn't it? Not that YCF didn't HAVE it, but he sure as hell didn't give it away to the public."

    Exactly. Omar also kinda started to answer his own arguement about who taught him even before that post.

    "Yes. I said "his kids and grandkids". Do you really think stories from his own students carry much more weight?"

    I used it cause it was in the line of discussion and not a kid or grandkid. There are other stories about him, even though he wasnt thought of as the "serious badass", being challanged by people to at least see if he had skill. Its been a while since I brushed up on my defend YCFs honor material but Im sure you even know most of them. Im not going to go all into it simply because anyone who has "reported" them knew him as a family member, student, peer or friend. At a certain point I dont know what you would even take as "evidence".

    Its also becoming a bit of a non arguement considering your own words.

    "he did not teach his grandfather's or even his older brother's form at the acadamy. He created a simplified form specially for the occaion and THAT much is historical fact."

    I wasnt argueing against that. What prompted me to enter the conversation was..

    "The "problem" is just that there is this whole Yang Chengfu line which is definately a step backwards..."

    I know you go on to say that good fighters come from the stock but I disagree that his "line" is in any way shape or form a step back in the martial sciences. I agree that his "gift" form was not for the purposes of serious study for the public to understand Tai CHi theory as it would be applied to boxing and that it has seriously confused people as to who he was. There is a clear difference between his Students and his "students".

    But maybe your right. Maybe I am high or have a horse in the race and Im just being defensive. Regardless of any of that I maintain that his martial science was solid as was the sciences of the people who taught him and the students that trained under him.
  3. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 9:53pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I actually am not arguing that Yang Chengfu was not very very good. By all reports he DID "uphold the family honor". I am only saying that:

    1. He was not the best.
    2. The form he created is fairly "defanged".

    edit: And I only jumped in to bother with that much because someone else described Yang as being the watered down version of Chen that Yang Luchan taught in the palace and THAT is an absurd assumption. So I only wanted to point out that the "watered down" form that he has seen was created by Yang Chengfu and NOT by Yang Luchan.

    I have no way of knowing what the entirety of his knowledge was or what he taught in private, to his own kids, to his closest disciples etc. I also, strange as this may seem to some, separate clearly "skills at taijiquan" from "skills at fighting". Taijiquan presents a very unique set of very specialized skills. Those skills, while they were originally either designed for or a product of "MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAT"......they still can and do exist independantly from their combat context. To make a modern day analogy, MMA and BJJ are actually not synonymous. BJJ was designed for Vale tudo but you can still be an excellent BJJ black belt with only mediocre MMA skills. You can focus purely on sport BJJ, work only on submissions and positional strategy and just plain not train striking or even take on challenges where stiking is allowed. You could do all this and still remain respected as one of the greatest BJJ masters of your time. (in theory) You can also become a UFC champ with only very limited BJJ skills. (relatively speaking)

    This is kind of how I tend to look at YCF, his form and the derivatives (such as CMC). I see something fairly different from your explanation of CMC's higher, narrower stances. William Chen may have taken things more in a combat direction watching CMC push hands and also form performances, I see him as taking things farther in the direction of "pure taiji", 8 jin, 5 steps.
    Last edited by Omar; 2/24/2007 9:57pm at .
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  4. blacktiger is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 11:47am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    " actually am not arguing that Yang Chengfu was not very very good. By all reports he DID "uphold the family honor". I am only saying that:

    1. He was not the best.
    2. The form he created is fairly "defanged"."

    Points conceded. I really may have just gotten a little defensive over the language in your your one response.


    " have no way of knowing what the entirety of his knowledge was or what he taught in private, to his own kids, to his closest disciples etc. I also, strange as this may seem to some, separate clearly "skills at taijiquan" from "skills at fighting". Taijiquan presents a very unique set of very specialized skills. Those skills, while they were originally either designed for or a product of "MORTAL COMBAAAAAAAT"......they still can and do exist independantly from their combat context. To make a modern day analogy, MMA and BJJ are actually not synonymous. BJJ was designed for Vale tudo but you can still be an excellent BJJ black belt with only mediocre MMA skills. You can focus purely on sport BJJ, work only on submissions and positional strategy and just plain not train striking or even take on challenges where stiking is allowed. You could do all this and still remain respected as one of the greatest BJJ masters of your time. (in theory) You can also become a UFC champ with only very limited BJJ skills. (relatively speaking)"

    Thats a damned good way to put it.

    "I see something fairly different from your explanation of CMC's higher, narrower stances."

    What do you mean?

    And just for those who dont know what the 8jin 5steps he is reffering to are, its kinda the basis of all taichi work. Wardoff rollback push press split elbow should pulldown =8 jin or energies. forward backwards left right center=5steps or directions. I might have a slightly different lexicon for talking about that kind of stuff but bottom line they are the 13 postures and all taichi has evolved from them.

    This is an alright thread. I thank you for speaking with me in very intelligent and civilized way and I think almost everything you have said has been pretty spot on despite my taking issue with basically one word, lol. When I saw a thread called "taijiquan" on bullshido of all places I braced myself but it has turned out to be very informative enjoyable for me personally.
  5. metarat is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 1:18pm


     Style: Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As usual, this interesting thread goes faster than I have time to give it. Here's a couple comments I wanted to chime in with, after the fact--

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    The "problem" is just that there is this whole Yang Chengfu line which is definately a step backwards although, I have to admit that the removal of such a large percentage of the technical arsenal has, ironically, produced more fighters than you see in most lines. What has tended to happen is that deprived of a really good set of techniques, a lot of YCF people chant the mantra "principles....principles....principles..." and then rely on simple (aka "high percentage") moves and don't even know what they are missing. They end up focusing on just simple relaxed movement and fight more intuitively. You can go a long way with that. Taijiquan is both technique AND principles. You can kind of get by on either one but I think being forced to only rely on one has made people...well....specialize, and sometimes with quite positive effects.
    I've done a little work in both Cheng Man-Ching and Wm. C. C. Chen's Yang (sub)forms, (I am NOT on a footing with your couple resident experts, that is obvious from reading their posts) and whereas elsewhere I think you say you don't know enough about WCCC to comment on his work, you have in fact hit the nail right on the head here.

    Here is what WCCC says in his book, Body Mechanics of TCC:

    "After my daily practice of the TCC forms, I broke the form down into a set of 4 or 5 movements to use as fighting techniques. I spent an additional hour to train in these techniques and repeated each of them 200 to 500 times in sloe motion and with relaxation. This allowed me to focus my mind on the inner energy flow, coordinated with the outer action. Once I had repeated each technique 5000 times or more, the conditioning of these techniques reached a satisfactory level of performance in slow motion as well as at full speed. I then went on to the next set of movements, and so on."

    Well, whoop there it is. I don't think he is exxagerating or being picturesque in his speech at all; here's his "secret", how he did it. He said the same thing in a magazine article in TC Magazine, recently reprinted, and has said the same thing every time someone has asked him at a seminar.

    It also explains, to my mind, why you DON'T see a lot of little WCCCs, or other folks really boxing with TCC out there; few people have that kind of work ethic and self-discipline, to do TCC enough, to finally make it work.
  6. Cullion is offline
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    Everybody was Kung Fu fighting

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 1:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by metarat
    It also explains, to my mind, why you DON'T see a lot of little WCCCs, or other folks really boxing with TCC out there; few people have that kind of work ethic and self-discipline, to do TCC enough, to finally make it work.
    Not really. They just don't spar or wrestle. The idea that Tai Chi can only be made functional after spending many, many years doing thousands of slow motion repetitions of each technique as done in the form isn't true. People can train in Tai Chi for a couple of years and compete sucessfully if they train at a school where hard sparring is normal.

    There is nothing magic about Tai Chi that means you have to wait ten years before you can spar.
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  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 1:54pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "After my daily practice of the TCC forms, I broke the form down into a set of 4 or 5 movements to use as fighting techniques. I spent an additional hour to train in these techniques and repeated each of them 200 to 500 times in sloe motion and with relaxation. This allowed me to focus my mind on the inner energy flow, coordinated with the outer action. Once I had repeated each technique 5000 times or more, the conditioning of these techniques reached a satisfactory level of performance in slow motion as well as at full speed. I then went on to the next set of movements, and so on."
    Interesting but that sounds like "drilling."


    Remember you must always get the whole story.

    http://www.williamccchen.com/Characteristics.htm

    The basic Yang Style Tai Chi way of combat training is done in slow motion, eliminating mistakes and bad habits; it is a similar manner to that of a beginner typist. Slow and deliberate motion training conserves energy and gets the job done well. It is also an excellent way of daily working out for Western boxers, and for practitioners of any other style of martial arts or sports.

    To prepare for a serious martial art match or any sport competitions, muscle power is required, and muscle training is needed. There are many ways to build up muscles, such as running, jumping, weight lifting, punching and kicking, or hitting the heavy bags. Ring fighters need strong muscles in order to produce powerful actions.
    Hmmmmm adds a different wrinkle doesn't it.
  8. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 3:11pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ".................And just for those who dont know what the 8jin 5steps he is reffering to are, its kinda the basis of all taichi work. Wardoff rollback push press split elbow should pulldown =8 jin or energies. forward backwards left right center=5steps or directions. I might have a slightly different lexicon for talking about that kind of stuff but bottom line they are the 13 postures and all taichi has evolved from them....."

    Just so I understand clearly. When the reference is made to "TCC" with these thirteen postures, does that include the CHEN Style as well or only YANG material moving forward to, say, WU and SUN?

    Since there is a line of thought that CHEN material may have derived in some part from the SHAOLIN Long Fist material might it be possible to move backwards to identify such postures in that material or is this a stretch?

    Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  9. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 6:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "The 13 Postures" includes Chen style. It's probably the simplest most fundamental "definintion" of Taijiquan that there is. It is, in fact, maybe the only consitant through-line connecting ALL styles of Taijiquan. Each and every single movement is broken down and analyzed through the lens of the 8 main jin (energies) and the energies exist in styles like BJJ too. BJJ just doens't use this particular systematic way of describing things.

    It's almost tempting to try and think of specific examples from grappling styles to make the analogies.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/26/2007 9:11am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ahhhh..... you must have read my mind!

    In Okinawan-Te there are quite a few kata whose names bespeak certain key numbers in Asiatic thinking such as "13" and "108". My thought was that possibly these numbers might reflect some relationship with the various permutations of the elements you mentioned. Since not all combinations of the elements might have proven combat applications it might stand to reason that a form would be constructed of a given number of combinations which the originator had found to be particularly useful. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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