232542 Bullies, 4458 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 21 to 30 of 56
Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123 456 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. dwhomp is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    203

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 3:02am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My TCC experience is with the CC Chen 60 movements. This is before I found a XY teacher but I spend a couple years in the CC Chen.

    I think Omar is right in the fact that change doesnt mean backwards. It just means change.

    Having worked with CC Chen a few times, I can tell you he is a great fighter. He is very talented. The rest of this, take with a grain of salt as I am NOT an authority, but just from what was told to me.

    1. The reasons it was shortened was to remove the repetition. The idea being why spend 30 minutes to fo through a form when it had so much repeated throughout.

    2. Chen Man Cheng changed many things due to injury that he could not do as well anymore so it was omitted.

    3. CC Chen (I dont know if he is the originator of this idea) made the stances very high and much more narrow. As I understand, this was twofold...one to provide it easier for the elderly to get involved an two to make the system more fighting applicable as the deep, wide stances were not proactical.

    But every instructor...EVERY instructor puts their own spin on things whether they mean to or not. It cant really be helped. To assume that you are learning a system from the very origins is just not correct, so I dont think it is feasible to assume so. And certainly some are more drastic then others.

    Again, if any of the above can be refuted from CC Chen experts, my apologies if I mucked it up.
  2. glad2bhere is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    288

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 9:16am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK--- need a little help here. I am hearing folks refer to "watered-down" in a couple of different ways.

    For me, when I think of an art being "watered down" I think of method being changed so as to reduce the energy or impact of execution. The usual reasons for this are to avoid injury or liability.

    I am also hearing folks say that dropping bits of material is also "watering down" and personally I don't know if that follows. Were that true one would have to say that adding material would ALSO be "watering down", yes?

    I guess I need some guidance as to how people are using this term within the context of this discussion. I know what I think "watering down" is but it seems different from how folks are using the term here and I don't think its being used the same way consistently. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  3. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    4,249

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:07am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm using it to mean "simplified".

    Lot's of stuff was removed or left out. For some people, that may mean a "back to basics" approach that has very positive effects. To me. no. In any case, when I talk about YCF and what he did, I am always translating in my mind from Chinese because that's the language I learned it in. I don't even know what a perfect translation of "watered down" is. The best way I know how to say what Yang Chengfu did is that he took tons of stuff out and make the form more basic. Taiiquan training exists on at least 3 levels.

    - form/technique
    - jin/energy
    - pure natural movement

    It's a bit of an overlapping spiral where initially it seems like it's a hierarchy but you keep going back to each of those aspects and repeating them with a differen perspective. YCF simplified the form and removed many of the techniques. He seems to me to have left the jin/energy intact and thereby left the door open to natural movement. AFAIK, CMC seems to have continued on that path and simplified even further by removing repeated movements in the form which I don't think is benificial. Again AFAIK William Chen seems to have added in typical Sanda training methods and extrapolated throws and other techniques that had been lost and in so doing, restored a lot of the combat applicabity of that line of the yang style. All I've seen though is the videos that are available online.

    I also have still not seen a single performance of the "old Yang style" online or anywhere else. See a lot of things labeled as such but they were all YCF forms just counting the movements differently so it added up to 108 instead of 88 or 85. My point of reference comes from my own lineage which is a pre-Yang Chengfu line usually referred to as "baguataijiquan" although we just call it "Yang Style 103". In any case, it is so different from Yang Chengfu's form that it is barely recognizeable but it IS Yang style. Come's down from Yang Luchan....just at a different point in his life from whenever the 108 was created.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  4. glad2bhere is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    288

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:25am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See. Now right there you make a good point. To me, reducing the vast number of repeat movemets in say CHEN TCC "Old Frame, #1" (aka: "LAO JIA LI YU") is not what I would call "watering down". In fact I think I would consider it a "public service", yes? Were a person to drop movements or interpretations of existing material because he was finding that it was a bit too risky to teach or train THEN I would consider that "watering down". Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  5. blacktiger is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    11

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:38am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Ultimately, the specific techniques become almost completely irrelevant. So YCF did a good job in that while stripping out the majority of the combat applications, he preserved the seeds needed to build good Taiji."

    That was going to be part of my response. Lol, you beat me to the punch.

    "The watering down of the form is not really questionable. All you have to do is look at a side by side comparison with the YCF form and one of the older Yang forms. Most of the leg work has been removed, sweeps are taken out along with various joint locks and striking aspects."

    These are techniques. All removed so that YCF could make a gift of his form to the public at large. I dont believe that simply removing techniques has any real impact on the science of the art. Simply putting forms next to each other and comparing techniques is not indicative(sp?) of the physics they use in practice. We can get information on mechanics and such, but anything else is hyperbole. There is no historical refference that I am aware of the mans skills being held in question and his students alone are proof enough of the legitimacy of his art. Any arguement I have ever seen held against him consists only of talk about comparing form or lineage.

    "Chen Manqing didn't teach the Yang Chengfu form."

    Most of the changes he made to the form were based on his understanding of TCM as it aplies to body mechanics. Hands are normally "Fair ladies hands" so that there isnt a break at the wrist when doing form to air. He was still YCFs student. His information came from him.

    "William Chen's stuff can not be said to be based on the YCF form "

    Yes and no. It is based on CMC form which is based on YCFs work.

    Dw- I think youre just about right.

    g2bh-That would probably be a good idea. getting a better idea of what omar means would help cause I dont fully disagree with what he is saying Im just looking to try to clear the water a little bit.

    If memory serves Omar trains in China so you have to understand the goggles he is seeing the discussion from. YCF "gift" to the public worked. Tons of people started learning his form simply for health reasons. As a result, just as most people in the world see Tai Chi as just some health thing a few people do, there are tons more people in China doing YCF and China certified forms for health. Having said that, there is a clear distiction between people who took up is form for health reasons and serious students that had a more serious intrest in his art.
  6. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    4,249

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is no historical refference that I am aware of the mans skills being held in question and his students alone are proof enough of the legitimacy of his art.

    Actually, it's common knowledge that YCF was not the best of his generation. He did not train seriously in his youth and only later in life did he pick up the legacy left by his grandfather. When he decided to get serious he had to go to various "uncles", technically his juniors in terms of lineage, to get his skills up to par. It is widely recognized that he was a late bloomer and although the "legitimacy" of his art is not in question, his credentials as a fighter are. This much is common knowledge in certain circles. The fact is, the Yang family has made it their mission to promote his form. The reasons I would think would be obvious, but even when Yang Chengfu was alive he was not recognized as the top Yang style master around. He was GOOD. VERY good. But not the top and not until later in life. Those honors would have to go to people like Yang Banhou and others I'd rather not mention publically.

    There's plenty of historical stuff on him in his 20's and just not being up to the task of carrying on the lineage.

    Yes and no. It is based on CMC form which is based on YCFs work.

    "Yes and no" is usually the answer in all questions really worth thinking about.

    If memory serves Omar trains in China so you have to understand the goggles he is seeing the discussion from.....

    To the rest of that.......yes and no.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. blacktiger is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    11

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 8:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont know of any stories of him being being bested. Im not denying that he didnt take the work seriously untill after the responsibilities were dumped in his lap. I know he gained a great deal of his serious training from people other than his father. Im just saying "Watered down" is a phrase that simply doesnt apply. I dare say that after he took up the work seriously he drove himself harder than almost anyone else.

    "the "legitimacy" of his art is not in question, his credentials as a fighter are."

    I dont see how this is so. There are many historical refferences to him being tested by many. Sometimes he even seriously hurt people, probably due to people thinking he wasnt any good due to his youmger days. I dont know of a single documented instance of him losing after he returned to his studies.

    "This much is common knowledge in certain circles."

    Thats just gossipy.

    "To the rest of that.......yes and no."

    LOL, come on!! You cant just do that!
  8. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    4,249

    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 8:52pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont know of any stories of him being being bested.
    I don't know of any stories of him even fighting. Never stepped on a leitai. Never took any challenges involving full on punching, kicking etc.

    I know he gained a great deal of his serious training from people other than his father.
    Who?

    There are many historical refferences to him being tested by many.
    Only in polite Taiji push hands type stuff. There's nothing historical about him fighting anyone at all.
    Sometimes he even seriously hurt people, probably due to people thinking he wasnt any good due to his youmger days.
    Now that's just being gossipy. Can you name a single incident that comes from a ANY source other than his own kids and grandkids? These stories all come out of his current day grandkids who are actively promoting his form as "THE" Yang style. They've even gone so far as to distinguish between "Yang Style" and "Yang Family Style" taijiquan.
    "This much is common knowledge [that YCF was not the best] in certain circles."

    Thats just gossipy.
    Yang Chengfu's elder brother Yang Shaohou was well known to be the better. That's why Yang Chengfu had to go to him for instruction.
    Last edited by Omar; 2/23/2007 8:57pm at .
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. blacktiger is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    11

    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 9:07am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Yang Tai Chi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ""I know he gained a great deal of his serious training from people other than his father. "



    Who?"

    YCF? Whats the question?

    "Can you name a single incident that comes from a ANY source other than his own kids and grandkids?"

    I dont even need to leave the line of discussion to answer that. Prof. Cheng. Cheng asked him exactly 2 times to "feel his master". Nobody liked asking YCF questions. He didnt like answering. There was a certain kind of tension sometimes between students and teacher because of the atmosphere surrounding them. Cheng, unlike his classmates didnt mind asking. Both times he woke up about an hour after the incident. At least one of the times they said he was thrown out of the door into the street.

    "Yang Chengfu's elder brother Yang Shaohou was well known to be the better. That's why Yang Chengfu had to go to him for instruction"
    So are you saying his elder brothers tai chi was watered down? Who did he learn his watered down kung fu from?
  10. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Xi'an, P.R.C.
    Posts
    4,249

    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 9:31am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of these questions you raised are really kind of borderline. Sounds like you've got a horse in this race so you can't look at things objectively. Putting it more bluntly: Are you high?

    Let's break it down:

    ""I know he gained a great deal of his serious training from people other than his father. "



    Who?"

    YCF? Whats the question?
    Who did he train under besides his father. (warning: This is a loaded question.)
    "Can you name a single incident that comes from a ANY source other than his own kids and grandkids?"

    I dont even need to leave the line of discussion to answer that. Prof. Cheng. Cheng asked him exactly 2 times to "feel his master". Nobody liked asking YCF questions. He didnt like answering. There was a certain kind of tension sometimes between students and teacher because of the atmosphere surrounding them. Cheng, unlike his classmates didnt mind asking. Both times he woke up about an hour after the incident. At least one of the times they said he was thrown out of the door into the street.
    Yes. I said "his kids and grandkids". Do you really think stories from his own students carry much more weight? Take him off the damn pedistal for a moment and think about what you're saying. He was capable of beating the crap out of .....wait for it.....




    ......his own students.

    Still nothing from anything outside "the club". A good student talking about how badass his teacher is. Where are the people from other styles, schools random challenges etc.?

    "Yang Chengfu's elder brother Yang Shaohou was well known to be the better. That's why Yang Chengfu had to go to him for instruction"
    So are you saying his elder brothers tai chi was watered down? Who did he learn his watered down kung fu from?
    This is the part that prompted me to ask, "Are you high?"

    Yang Shaohou was a serious badass. Yang Chengfu went to him to learn how to improve his Taijiquan. LATER when YCF was invited to teach at the Nanjing acadamy THAT's when he simplified the form, left **** out, made it more "civil" and less "combative" just like I said in my very first post on the subject. It can well be assumed that YCF learned his grandfather's original form. He was a fucking bloodline inheritor for god's sake, BUT and this is as big a but as YCF's own prodigious posterior.....he did not teach his grandfather's or even his older brother's form at the acadamy. He created a simplified form specially for the occaion and THAT much is historical fact.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


Page 3 of 6 FirstFirst 123 456 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.