Talked with a vet about M14s versus M16A1s

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 7:48pm

Yesterday I sat at a bar getting drunk with this skinny elderly fellow who used to be in the Army in 1962. He knows that I like history so he started telling me about the P38 can opener. Then, I had a flash of inspiration and asked him about M14s. Apparently he'd had the chance to operate M1s, M14s, and M16A1s.

"Everything I've read on the internet says that the M14 had excessive muzzle climb when fired in full auto. Was that true in your experience?"

He replied, "No, it was very easy to control in full auto! The M16, that was hard to control in full auto! You'd fire it and it would jerk upwards much harder than the M14. They they did something with it and instead of jerking upwards it would jerk to the right. Then they did something more and it was jerking to the left!"

This was interesting because, well, everything on the internet tells you the M14 was fiercely difficult to control on full auto. Also, the old M16A1s must have been really terrible if they were harder to control in 5.56 than M14s in 7.62. This tidbit was particularly interesting to me because Phrost once said that you could hold a M16A2 against your testicles and fire it and get nothing more than a pleasant vibration. The A2 must be a lot better behaved than the old A1s.

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 7:56pm

I fired A1's and A2's in basic. To be honest other than a few differences in hand guards, sights etc. I don't recall there being a difference in the way they fired or felt recoil. Then again I didn't fire the A1's full auto either. I do like the burst mode of the A2 though over full auto. Much more control and your likely to at least get two of three on target.

P38... That's funny. Saw 'em at the gun show last month for $1.50 each. Friggen ridiculous.

**metarat** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 8:31pm

! Is/was Phrost an Instructor-Type? I distinctly remember a Drill Serjeant doing a demo with the M16 where he held it one-handed, buttstock against his chin, then against his crotch, firing it, to show us the "negligible" recoil.

I -think-, and would not be sure without research, but I think some of the problems were due to rifling twist, bullet weight and etc., it took awhile (unfortunately during Vietnam) to get the bugs out.

The M14 is much heavier, which of course helps soak up recoil. But I -think- that the M16 also has a much higher cyclic rate (rate of fire) in full auto, which would explain the climb and the tendency to torque in one direction or another.

**Phrost** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 8:40pm

I was a SGT, Range Safety NCO, and a bunch of other incidental crap that comes along with being Hooah and such.

We had a DS do the exact same thing at basic, although this was sometime after he'd told us how he'd blown up a camel with an AT-4 so the demonstration didn't exactly have all of the intended effect because most of us privates thought he was just crazy as all ****.

I've shot both A1s, A2s, and M-4s. Hell, we got to clean the grease off brand new A2s and were one of the first classes to get them. The A1, on full auto, spits lead like a trailer park meth tweaker spits out sunflower seeds after an all-night cleaning binge. It's no wonder the ammo to kill ratios in Vietnam were so insanely bad.

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 8:41pm

I believe Phrost used to be a sergant in the Army.

EDIT: D'OH Phrost beat me to the punch!

Interesting desc of the A1 recoil, Phrost.

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 8:49pm

There ya have it. Like a tweaker spittin meth on the 4th of July like a parked trailer in the clearing.

**Phrost** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 8:52pm

Well it wasn't so much about the recoil as it was the rate of fire. None of the M-16s have much recoil at all. I remember doing a mag dump on an A1 with my arm extended "gangsta" style to get rid of extra ammo at a range or something (I think it was at a beach assault exercise in VA actually). The thing didn't really climb that bad and I was a scrawny little fucker fresh out of high school at the time.

In comparison, my Platoon SGT in Panama, 240lb whale of a ************ who looked a lot like that American Eagle muppet had sex with a life-sized action figure, tried to one-arm an M-60 and couldn't control it. The guy bench pressed around 400lbs, and he almost lost control of it after 20 rounds or so.

**Phrost** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 10:27pm

Going to move this to the Armory.

**Red Elvis** · Posted On: 3/02/2007 11:36pm

Originally Posted by Phrost

240lb whale of a ************ who looked a lot like that American Eagle muppet had sex with a life-sized action figure, tried to one-arm an M-60 and couldn't control it. The guy bench pressed around 400lbs, and he almost lost control of it after 20 rounds or so.

****, John Rambo could do it. He must not have been that tuff!:icon_roll

***Cassius*** · Posted On: 3/03/2007 1:09am

I've fired the M-16 A4s and they're not heavily improved over the A2s besides the nifty gear you can use with them. Up and to the right for burst, generally, unless you overcompensate. Then it'll be down and to the left.