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  1. MartialArtN00b is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:11pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A form is a really long exercice.

    If you give the proper attention to every posture in a form, it takes a very long time. And you gotta do it in a certain way or else youre just going to wear out your knees or other joints by putting unnecessary stress on it. Not that people really notice anyways, because most people from youtube seem do it like a hiphop dance routine.

    After an hour, i usually havent passed the quarter mark of my first hung gar pillar form.

    Why do i do it? Well theres no quick fix way of learning solo what i want to learn which is power from perfect posture and base. Both which are rather intangible. You cant spar all the time, and the formwork is relaxing ( in a yoga sense of way minus the hotties).

    For heck of it, consider the crane (karate kid) stance. Which is rather ridiculous, you stand on one leg with a raised knee. Easy to do, no way you can perfect that. You could hold it for 5 min, and youd probably get bored after 1.

    Replace that with the tree pose which is essentially the same thing except the raised feet stays on the inner thigh instead on the knee (putting it on the knee is actually bad for you as well as lazy). That WILL take time to perfect. But from that you get better balance, flexibility, and strength.

    And thats why Yoga is teh AWESOME, making kungfu forms teh AWESOME too (minus the hotties).

    It just takes time and its not so easy either.
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:27pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MartialArtN00b
    A form is a really long exercice.

    If you give the proper attention to every posture in a form, it takes a very long time. And you gotta do it in a certain way or else youre just going to wear out your knees or other joints by putting unnecessary stress on it. Not that people really notice anyways, because most people from youtube seem do it like a hiphop dance routine.

    After an hour, i usually havent passed the quarter mark of my first hung gar pillar form.

    Why do i do it? Well theres no quick fix way of learning solo what i want to learn which is power from perfect posture and base. Both which are rather intangible. You cant spar all the time, and the formwork is relaxing ( in a yoga sense of way minus the hotties).

    For heck of it, consider the crane (karate kid) stance. Which is rather ridiculous, you stand on one leg with a raised knee. Easy to do, no way you can perfect that. You could hold it for 5 min, and youd probably get bored after 1.

    Replace that with the tree pose which is essentially the same thing except the raised feet stays on the inner thigh instead on the knee (putting it on the knee is actually bad for you as well as lazy). That WILL take time to perfect. But from that you get better balance, flexibility, and strength.

    And thats why Yoga is teh AWESOME, making kungfu forms teh AWESOME too (minus the hotties).

    It just takes time and its not so easy either.
    The crane stance in the Karate Kid is actually from Goju (Goju founder Chogen Miyagi Daniel San's sensei Mr. Miyagi)

    And you can actually see guys sparring using it in this OLD clip at about the 1:30 mark

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aFZukLU_H6g

    @ things to remember about forms IMO

    1 people actually used to try and spar using these stances and such

    2 a lot of the basis for them come from weapons training. When i fenced I had a low side ways crouch that took a lot of work to condition and master to allow me to move back and forth quickly, lunge and retreat. As far as hand to hand combat it was an impractical form, for fencing and sword work it made a lot of sense.
  3. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:31pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    From what I've read Sifu Jason and Omega's school do this. Before I quit teaching (long story) I did it with Xingyi.

    You have to know what to look for when you go into a school. Forms IMO became like Pokemon got ratch them all. This over shadowed their usefulness.

    China from the Inside had a really good article about xingyi. Basically the guy said masters kept adding things they took from other arts that they liked. I like elbows suddenly there is an elbow form. Some one liked the iron fan so on and so forth.
    I can't speak for Omega (although based on what he's said, I agree with your assumption), but my school/style definetly does this. All students are expected to not only know the form's movements, but what each movement is doing to an opponent, and how it can be applied on the street. Sometimes, the answer is "well, in this one scenario I could...", but more often than not, some good techniques/combinations come out of the forms.
  4. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:32pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    I agree in this context.

    In the context of sparring, which I thought he was asking, the order doesn't matter.
    I concur completely.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:38pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    1 people actually used to try and spar using these stances and such

    2 a lot of the basis for them come from weapons training. When i fenced I had a low side ways crouch that took a lot of work to condition and master to allow me to move back and forth quickly, lunge and retreat. As far as hand to hand combat it was an impractical form, for fencing and sword work it made a lot of sense.
    Impractical for you. See, I don't agree fully with this implication. There are many stances that work for many different people.

    A good coach says its good for someone short or tall, flexible or non, fat or skinny, or whatever.

    The stance you described rarely worked for me. I had two compatriots that, both at the 5'4 height, used it to great effect.
  6. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:40pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    I can't speak for Omega (although based on what he's said, I agree with your assumption), but my school/style definetly does this. All students are expected to not only know the form's movements, but what each movement is doing to an opponent, and how it can be applied on the street. Sometimes, the answer is "well, in this one scenario I could...", but more often than not, some good techniques/combinations come out of the forms.
    Cool. If more school's taught this way forms wouldn't be seen as such a waste IMO.
  7. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:50pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Impractical for you. See, I don't agree fully with this implication. There are many stances that work for many different people.

    A good coach says its good for someone short or tall, flexible or non, fat or skinny, or whatever.

    The stance you described rarely worked for me. I had two compatriots that, both at the 5'4 height, used it to great effect.

    No you're right it depends on the person, style and intent.

    Going back to the fencing analogy Bruce Lee actually adopted a lot of fencing foot work and stance in JKD.

    One of the reasons for this is because of the foot work and mobility, also because a lunge's power is actually initiated with the front leg forward kick and this give the lunge or a punch a lot of velocity, as well as a good low snap kick which does have hand to hand application.

    While to this day I still retain some fencing footwork in how I spar my own stance is closer to a boxer where I am squared up rather than turned sideways trying to reduce my target area.

    If however my style was one that emphasised quick lunge like punches and a more sidways stance with low kicks then the fencing stance would be practical for hand to hand.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:58pm

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    No you're right it depends on the person, style and intent.

    Going back to the fencing analogy Bruce Lee actually adopted a lot of fencing foot work and stance in JKD.

    One of the reasons for this is because of the foot work and mobility, also because a lunge's power is actually initiated with the front leg forward kick and this give the lunge or a punch a lot of velocity, as well as a good low snap kick which does have hand to hand application.

    While to this day I still retain some fencing footwork in how I spar my own stance is closer to a boxer where I am squared up rather than turned sideways trying to reduce my target area.

    If however my style was one that emphasised quick lunge like punches and a more sidways stance with low kicks then the fencing stance would be practical for hand to hand.
    See you have the right mind set. Kung Fu is supposed to evolve. As things get old you should drop the useless. If you find something that is missing you add the technique.

    Now on other hand if you are trying to preserve the entire art for aesthetic value cool.

    Its funny to me that MT/BJJ/GJJ/Boxing can do this with no problem. Yet kung fu can't because you have the traditionalists saying it isn't kung fu and the Sports fighters saying it isn't kung fu.


    It is a no win situation.
  9. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 11:27pm

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     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I guess the option is to do what omega does and just flip the bird to doubters in both worlds.

    It's funny in the MMA world a lot of people forget that the MA stands for martial arts, and that while TMA's may have a lot of problems and issues they're also a good resource to come up with new or variations of techniques that can be applied to an MMA point of view.

    Case in point for me. Goju has a stance called Neko ashi dachi - cat stance (I am sure there's a KF equivalent) The point of this stance is that 90% of your weight is on your back leg so that like the Muay Thai stance you can check kicks to your front leg. the difference is that the Cat stance is ideal for front kicks of the lead leg, and the Muay Thai stance which is similar but broader is ideal for throwing roundhouse kicks off the lead leg.

    So I added the MT stance to my sparring and found it helped in throwing inside leg kicks and I do (or try to do) what GSP did against Matt Hughes and throw inside and outside leg kicks and set up for a head kick. I did this on Wednesday and actually kicked the guy (lightly) in the head, which surprised the heck out of me as I am as flexible as an uncooked piece of spaghetti.

    Anyways here's my point, now having added the MT stance to my fighting style which is not part of the GoJu-jitsu curriculum I actually have a better appreciation of the practical application of the cat stance and my goal is blend the two so I can go from effectively roundhouse kicking the inside of my opponents legs to front kicking them in the gut, what I need to work on is transitioning from the stances, and coming up with combos where I step in with a round house kick, circle to the outside while bringing my stance in to cat stance and throwing a front kick, which hopefully looks like the roundhouse I just threw so they don't block it properly.

    Anyways my point is on the surface the cat stance looks archaic but in adding something else from outside the system I have discovered it's practical application.

    Or I think I have I'll see next week when I spar
  10. MartialArtN00b is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 11:55pm


     Style: bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    The crane stance in the Karate Kid is actually from Goju (Goju founder Chogen Miyagi Daniel San's sensei Mr. Miyagi)

    And you can actually see guys sparring using it in this OLD clip at about the 1:30 mark

    @ things to remember about forms IMO

    1 people actually used to try and spar using these stances and such

    2 a lot of the basis for them come from weapons training. When i fenced I had a low side ways crouch that took a lot of work to condition and master to allow me to move back and forth quickly, lunge and retreat. As far as hand to hand combat it was an impractical form, for fencing and sword work it made a lot of sense.
    Im not bagging on the stance, i think a crane stance more as the end result after you do a reaping/sweeping motion.

    But i know that in savate they drill sparring matches where you cant put one leg down. I imagine, its not so different from trying to fight like in that vid.

    Long time ago, sparred a person who fought like that but had some brutal lead snap kicks and reach advantage. That was a hell of a sucky time for me.

    I can only imagine savateurs.
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