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  1. SifuJason is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 8:35pm


     Style: WHKD (Kaju), Sub. Grapple

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RunningDog
    I'm of the opinion that forms are unnecessarily long and complex. The order of movements doesn't matter, does it? So why not just break them down, take the parts you think you need to retain the essence of your art, and just integrate those parts into drilling, padwork and sparring?

    While I don't particularly like forms, and my school doesn't focus on them, they are still a part of what we do and something I find valuable. The order of movements does indeed matter, because forms help develop the ability to move fluidly between stances while incorporating strikes. By doing so, you help develop balance, speed, fluidity, and precision, all of which are very useful in a fight. Are they the most time-efficient method way to develop some of these attributes? I don't personally believe so. However, they do serve to hone you physically and skill-wise in a way other drills don't neccesarily do, and so forms have their place.

    ----

    In regards to the general question posted, in my perspective CMA can be the most "complete" of the martial arts. While many CMAs taught today have cut out a lot, CMA can incorporate striking, grappling, throws, weapons, etc, and thus if you have all day to train (8 hours a day) CMA can accomodate you, at least in theory.

    Now, whether the above is actually reality I am not so sure. I happen to practice/teach an eclectic, modern style of kung fu with a lot of other stuff mixed in; so I don't have a partcularly strong need to go beyond my system (although extra BJJ is always nice). I WISH I had 8 hours/day to train.
  2. RunningDog is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 8:36pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    In some cases I agree.

    No.


    Good school do exactly what you propose.


    Tell us what kung fu schools you have seen or practiced. This isn't an insult or challenge.
    I used to go to a school which called itself shaolin, and had a load of low-stance forms. Then I did Wai Po Tang Wing Chun for a year, and Leung Ting's Wing Tsun for years.
    I think with the Shaolin school, the strength gains from horse-stance could have been achieved more efficiently with modern resistance training, like someone just said. They didn't actually apply most of the movements from the forms in sparring.

    With Wing Tsun, or any wing chun, they do at least try to use everything from the forms as fighting application. However they emphasize form practice and perfection so much, that they're seen as the ultimate reference source. Practitioners really believe that the forms contain every possible movement you need for fighting. This has, I think, led the art to stagnate terribly - at the moment no adaptation is possible due to form worship.

    What kung fu styles break their forms up and adapt to modern training methods? I've never seen one.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 8:46pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by RunningDog

    What kung fu styles break their forms up and adapt to modern training methods? I've never seen one.
    From what I've read Sifu Jason and Omega's school do this. Before I quit teaching (long story) I did it with Xingyi.

    You have to know what to look for when you go into a school. Forms IMO became like Pokemon got ratch them all. This over shadowed their usefulness.

    China from the Inside had a really good article about xingyi. Basically the guy said masters kept adding things they took from other arts that they liked. I like elbows suddenly there is an elbow form. Some one liked the iron fan so on and so forth.
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 8:49pm

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by SifuJason
    While I don't particularly like forms, and my school doesn't focus on them, they are still a part of what we do and something I find valuable. The order of movements does indeed matter,
    I agree in this context.

    In the context of sparring, which I thought he was asking, the order doesn't matter.
  5. RunningDog is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 8:56pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    From what I've read Sifu Jason and Omega's school do this. Before I quit teaching (long story) I did it with Xingyi.

    You have to know what to look for when you go into a school. Forms IMO became like Pokemon got ratch them all. This over shadowed their usefulness.

    China from the Inside had a really good article about xingyi. Basically the guy said masters kept adding things they took from other arts that they liked. I like elbows suddenly there is an elbow form. Some one liked the iron fan so on and so forth.
    I guess it depends on your school, and the attitude of your sifus, how much adaptation/discarding you can do. Where I was teaching I could get away with massively upping the intensity of training, but I was still constrained to a syllabus that included a great number of increasingly complex drills, and of course 'perfection' of the forms.

    Now that I've calmed down on the _ing _un hating, I can admit that there's still some stuff I like about it, and that I daresay could be useful. But in the restricted position I was in, there was no way I could concentrate on those things and bring in new material. I started to do so but shortly realized that I was fighting a losing battle, so I quit the school entirely.

    I suspect that a lot of 'trad' schools have the same obstacles.
  6. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 9:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Stances

    I have found that doing stances managed to make my legs very strong. I did develop a sure footedness so to speak, though I can not really just attribute that to stances. But one thing for sure, regular stance training made my legs muscular and dense or hard. It toughened my legs. I could take kicks to my legs. I did eventually overtrain and hurt my knee. I went to my chiropractor to have him look at it to get his thoughts. He says "What in the hell have you been doing to your legs? Holy ****!"

    Anyway, all I would need is 15 minutes a day to do them, and I regularly did them while watching TV. Talk about pain.

    PS: There's some show on animal planet now talking about animal inspired styles, I'm going to have to subject myself to it.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 9:07pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, this seems to be a restriction in many shaolin schools. I was in a Shaolin Mcdojo I knew at one point over a hundred forms from easy to complex. We had a hard sparring school so the forms focus wasn't great until the original instructor quit.

    years in I realized how ridiculous that number was. I started learning Xing-yi and realized this little system contained damn near every strike that the others did in a much more compact manner.

    Researching and teaching made me realize how ridiculous a large amount of form focus is in the wrong manner.
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 9:10pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis

    PS: There's some show on animal planet now talking about animal inspired styles, I'm going to have to subject myself to it.
    Well, lucky you it doesn't come on for another 3 hours out here.
  9. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 9:47pm


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    years in I realized how ridiculous that number was. I started learning Xing-yi and realized this little system contained damn near every strike that the others did in a much more compact manner.
    This is not unsimiliar to my own "awakening". I would also add that here was an art (XY) that I could do for the rest of my life when the McDojo Shaolin-ish was one that I could do until my joints fell apart, etc. Outside of any "Mc" discussion, it was a young man's game an one that had limited life.
  10. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/17/2007 10:02pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhomp
    This is not unsimiliar to my own "awakening". I would also add that here was an art (XY) that I could do for the rest of my life when the McDojo Shaolin-ish was one that I could do until my joints fell apart, etc. Outside of any "Mc" discussion, it was a young man's game an one that had limited life.
    I know what you mean.
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