What do to when your Kwoon is becoming Bullshido? My dilemma.

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 1:24pm

I can't say this will be much help but I throw it out for whatever good it might do.

Reading your posts I see an awful lot of gauging your circumstances by what other people are doing. As a traditional student you have obligations to both your art and your teacher and those are not going to get met by measuring what you do according to whats going on with others. Your job isn't just to walk in the tracks of the guy ahead of you, as you follow your Path. You are suppose to be following your Path, and sooner or later be leaving a trail.

As far as your teacher's attitude, I think this is probably one of the best kept secrets in the MA community. You cannot believe how much MA teachers "lead lives of quiet desperation". Yes, I know there are a lot of charlatans, fakes, frauds and assholes in the MA community. But there are also great numbers of folks who have worked to do the right thing and wound-up disregarded, unrecognized or abandoned. Running a place where people can train is a very iffy business just like opening a restaurant. It has a helluva lot of image, perception and emotion wrapped-up together and not a little plain ol' luck is involved. For people who have trained years to develop their skills and aspire to maintaining high standards, it can be a pretty bitter pill to swallow to find that all has gone for naught. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**Ronin.74** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 2:13pm

Originally Posted by glad2bhere

I can't say this will be much help but I throw it out for whatever good it might do.

Reading your posts I see an awful lot of gauging your circumstances by what other people are doing. As a traditional student you have obligations to both your art and your teacher and those are not going to get met by measuring what you do according to whats going on with others. Your job isn't just to walk in the tracks of the guy ahead of you, as you follow your Path. You are suppose to be following your Path, and sooner or later be leaving a trail.
As far as your teacher's attitude, I think this is probably one of the best kept secrets in the MA community. You cannot believe how much MA teachers "lead lives of quiet desperation". Yes, I know there are a lot of charlatans, fakes, frauds and assholes in the MA community. But there are also great numbers of folks who have worked to do the right thing and wound-up disregarded, unrecognized or abandoned. Running a place where people can train is a very iffy business just like opening a restaurant. It has a helluva lot of image, perception and emotion wrapped-up together and not a little plain ol' luck is involved. For people who have trained years to develop their skills and aspire to maintaining high standards, it can be a pretty bitter pill to swallow to find that all has gone for naught. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Well said, ideally that is what I want to happen. I have tried to get the senior student to look in terms more or less like your "path" ananlogy. My stance has been, "don't worry about what those students are doing. If they don't get it and choose not to put forth the time or the effort to understand, then it's not our problem. We're doing what we feel is best for us so don't be concerned about them."

I.E. we have chosen our path to accomplishing our goals, they have chosen a different path. We might not agree with their path or understand it but in time we just may find them turning around and following our tracks to achieve their goals.

My KF brother is rather hot tempered though and it upsets him that one day our shifu's name may be dragged through the mud by students with lesser skills claiming to be "masters" of an art they barely understand. So he has a harder time letting things slide.

See the thread linked in the OP (if you haven't already) and you'll see why we're concerned.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 2:30pm

While you seem reluctant to open a school and consider yourself shifus, would you consider yourself able to be assistant instructor?

If you keep a certain level of contact with your shifu when he moves back to China, couldn't you and the other senior student arrange to teach in his stead in order to help the younger students? Not as shifus, but as his delegates.

**Ronin.74** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 2:47pm

Originally Posted by Guizzy

While you seem reluctant to open a school and consider yourself shifus, would you consider yourself able to be assistant instructor?

If you keep a certain level of contact with your shifu when he moves back to China, couldn't you and the other senior student arrange to teach in his stead in order to help the younger students? Not as shifus, but as his delegates.

That is esentially what we are hoping for once he returns to China. But one or both of us being placed in charge in his stead will not necessarily keep other students from going off on their own and claiming that they have the real Baji, which is kind of what happened with the guy in the thread linked in my OP.

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 8:23pm

".....That is esentially what we are hoping for once he returns to China. But one or both of us being placed in charge in his stead will not necessarily keep other students from going off on their own and claiming that they have the real Baji, which is kind of what happened with the guy in the thread linked in my OP...."

Unfortuantely, thats probably a concept you will need to start warming-up to. The fact is that MA has been and always will be hard, slow, tedious work. This makes the activity overall susceptible to anyone who says they offer something that easier or faster or cheaper--- or all of the above. As far as people laying claim to a level of understanding or expertise that they don't actually have, well, that too has become a huge portion of MA.
One bright sport that I have found is that unlike the pre-INTERNET days of MA we now have a venue for asking questions and gathering information that people in the 60-s and 70-s didn't have. All the same, though such advances give us new tools to fight fraud, it does not do away with the behaviors entirely. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**antman** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 8:56pm

Originally Posted by dwhomp

I would disagree, in the "internal" side of the house it is all to common to NOT spar, but in 20 years you will be a fighting God. Many many times the instructors dont know how. Crazy? Yep.

(BTW this is in no reflection of the OP, school, or teaching)

I didn't think that Baji was an internal style I thought that Xing-Yi, Bagua, and Tai- Chi. Not that I don't trust dwhomp but could some other people shed a little light on this.

On a side not the only people I know who wouldn't like to spar would be tai chi students in the area.

**antman** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 8:59pm

Another thing... If your teacher thinks you are competent to open a school/ or hold that one open when he leaves then you probably are at least to his standards, and remeber his understanding now is probably a lot stronger than when he started teching, you will develop

**Mei Hua** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 9:01pm

Originally Posted by antman

I didn't think that Baji was an internal style I thought that Xing-Yi, Bagua, and Tai- Chi. Not that I don't trust dwhomp but could some other people shed a little light on this.

On a side not the only people I know who wouldn't like to spar would be tai chi students in the area.

Have never done Baji but as far as I'm aware it is an IMA.

Though to say Tai Chi doesn't spar is false, I used to do it and we sparred frequently, that isn't common but for those instructing the practical martial techniques it is.

**dwhomp** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 9:08pm

Originally Posted by antman

I didn't think that Baji was an internal style I thought that Xing-Yi, Bagua, and Tai- Chi. Not that I don't trust dwhomp but could some other people shed a little light on this.

On a side not the only people I know who wouldn't like to spar would be tai chi students in the area.

Yes, Baji is considered an internal style as well as many many others, however the big 3 are as you mentioned, XY, TCC, and Bagua. XY seems to be the less common of the 3, TCC being the most common.

But under that there are many other "internal" arts but they are so less common that you dont hear about them much.

For the most part, I agree with the TCC sparring issue. Of every one TCC player that is very good at it, there seem to be another 99 that arent.

**Ronin.74** · Posted On: 2/26/2007 9:19pm

Originally Posted by antman

I didn't think that Baji was an internal style I thought that Xing-Yi, Bagua, and Tai- Chi. Not that I don't trust dwhomp but could some other people shed a little light on this.

On a side not the only people I know who wouldn't like to spar would be tai chi students in the area.

I have heard Baji referred to as an internal style as well, but as far as internal styles go I consider Baji borderline. I have seen taught in a manner that resembles Tai Chi, with slower softer movements, and I've seen taught in a manner that resembles harder styles, with a focus on power. Below are some clips from another thread in the CMA forums that may help;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip9Y7YK-5c

and this one featuring our very own Lord Asia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_642acVEa1E