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  1. dingirfecho is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 1:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali/Box/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A somewhat more related anecdote:
    I teach buddhism, and since the buddhist community is not that numerous (and thereīs only one university were buddhism is taught) I tend to get invited to many ceremonies. When the Won Buddhist temple opened the head monk whoīs a friend of mine invited me to attend a reception. On that reception there was a Tango dancing demonstration (for the Korean dignataries) and a Sipalki demonstration. All the Sipalki practitioners were Argentinians, and a older nun commented me that you "donīt see that Sipalki in Korea".
    It could mean either that the kind of demonstration wasnīt a common ocurrence, or either that it just wasnīt Sipalki. Still, she is a Korean buddhist nun, so it would have been impolite to ask her to clarify, specially being an Argentinian. And while the people attending didnīt seem to thrilled, that they invited a Sipalki school to demonstrate in a temple opening means that at least some part of the Korean community accepts them.
  2. kimyuseok is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 3:50pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: HKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallow
    But, as far as I knows, Kim's claims don't have any more substance that Yoo's.
    Except that Kim's claims are backed up by independent scholars.....

    How much academic research was done on Yoo's mix of HKD/KSW..??

    Now don't get me wrong, I am not here to defend Kim's version of sibpalki and am curious about evidence that he did practice with people who had actually trained at the palace before the occupation.
    Since by the time the MYDBTJ was written it was already outdated, the weaponry described was considered old fashioned because everyone and his mother knew that guns were more effective. So I would think that if the techniques in the MYDBTJ were practiced (intensively) after the 1870's or so, it would have been for parades and stuff like the changing of the guards (much like you can see at Buckingham Palace these days).

    But maybe someone can prove me wrong.
  3. Swallow is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 7:06pm

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     Style: Si Pal Ki

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dingirfecho
    you "donīt see that Sipalki in Korea". .
    Which even if Yoo's vesion is true will be correct since Sipalki Ion Bi Ryu is claimed to be an style practiced by his family, without much spread to the rest of tyhe Korean Society.

    Swallow
    Last edited by Swallow; 1/15/2008 7:17pm at .
  4. Swallow is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/15/2008 7:15pm

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     Style: Si Pal Ki

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kimyuseok
    Except that Kim's claims are backed up by independent scholars.....
    Where?

    When?

    Did they prove that Kim's techniques are the same as in ancient times?


    How much academic research was done on Yoo's mix of HKD/KSW..??
    Not much, that's why I am trying to investigate, basically I know of Adrogiue's article, and an unpublishe book by a lawyer) but anyhow your question alresady presuposes that Yoo's style is a HKD/KSW derivative, and that's exactly what we are trying to determine.

    Yoo's version says that the art was preserved in the family, he claims that one of his ancestors was a General in the XVIII century, in one interview he said that his father taught him Hyungs and theory, perhaps those are the only things remaining from pre occupation times, and the rest he built, based in the incipient HKD?KSW. Who knows?

    Swallow
  5. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 8:32am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallow
    The MYDBTJ has been interpreted in different ways, for example, Hwang Kee claimed to have been inspired by it, when creating Tang Soo Do (Soo Bahk Do)
    Only in naming his art. He did not use it as a basis to developing his art. That comes from his Chuan'fa training in Manchuria, his book reading on Okinawan forms and his training under Lee, Won-kuk.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  6. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 8:39am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallow
    Which even if Yoo's vesion is true will be correct since Sipalki Ion Bi Ryu is claimed to be an style practiced by his family, without much spread to the rest of tyhe Korean Society.

    Swallow
    That statement alone tells me that it isn't "true" sippalki but his family's version of some martial art, which he decided to give the same name to. It would be like me putting together a whole bunch of hand and foot techniques and then calling it taekwondo, when I have had no main stream TKD training.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  7. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 8:44am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallow
    Yoo's version says that the art was preserved in the family, he claims that one of his ancestors was a General in the XVIII century, in one interview he said that his father taught him Hyungs and theory, perhaps those are the only things remaining from pre occupation times, and the rest he built, based in the incipient HKD?KSW. Who knows?

    Swallow
    There you go. Now you have a basis to start your investigation. He claims to have a general in the 18th century. Here is what you do. Ask him to give you a kanji of his family name. With that you can find out the type of caste his family was in. Trace back who the Korean kings were back around that time and figure out the political system that they had in place. This will determine the type of training that they may or may not have. From there read up on any internal conflicts within the palace. Korea is known to have a lot of internal politics which caused many of the kings to be overthrown by their own generals. This was a main reason that one king (whose name escapes me as I write this) disbanded the Hwarang due to fears of being overthrown.

    You will find that studying true Korean history will be a big help in sifting through the BS of many of these arts.
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  8. kimyuseok is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 8:54am

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     Style: HKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It was also the reason why many of the King's guards were foreigners (which we know from Hamel's account)

    For those of you that don't know who Hamel was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrick_Hamel


    [off topic bogus]
    True history of 18ki
    So it were the Dutch who brought the traditional martial arts to Korea. The Dutch later lost their martial tradition during the French occupation (around 1800). Which not coincidentially is around the time the MYDBTJ was written.

    It wasn't until the late 20th century when hwoaranggirl brought this forgotten part of Dutch cultural heritage back to the Netherlands where she taught it to the Dutch prince Willem Alexander who later married a girl from Argentina called Maxima.

    She told Yoo about Sibpalki and he liked the name so much he started using it for his own mix of sloppy HKD techniques.

    [/bogus]
    Last edited by kimyuseok; 1/16/2008 9:00am at .
  9. Miguksaram is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 9:19am

    supporting member
     Style: Shorei-ryu & Kumdo & TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kimyuseok
    It was also the reason why many of the King's guards were foreigners (which we know from Hamel's account)

    For those of you that don't know who Hamel was: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hendrick_Hamel


    [off topic bogus]
    True history of 18ki
    So it were the Dutch who brought the traditional martial arts to Korea. The Dutch later lost their martial tradition during the French occupation (around 1800). Which not coincidentially is around the time the MYDBTJ was written.

    It wasn't until the late 20th century when hwoaranggirl brought this forgotten part of Dutch cultural heritage back to the Netherlands where she taught it to the Dutch prince Willem Alexander who later married a girl from Argentina called Maxima.

    She told Yoo about Sibpalki and he liked the name so much he started using it for his own mix of sloppy HKD techniques.

    [/bogus]
    Right...now all we have to do is find Kim's Taoist Temple and trace his lineage back to when they first introduced a weapons art into a temple. Especially, if I remember correctly, that the reigning politicial and religous power was Buddhist at the time of the formation of all of this.

    Plus I still have another question. The MYDBTJ was a "cliff notes" guide to the fighting system of the time, is the Sippalki being practiced by Kim at this time adhering to that or does it have more curriculum? If so why has there not been any other recorded version that would show a more indepth look into the art?
    Jeremy M. Talbott

    Quote Originally Posted by Phrost
    "Bullshido isn't just a place to hang out when you're browsing the net. We really are trying to accomplish something fucking extraordinary here that nobody's ever had the balls to do before."
    Quote Originally Posted by D.Murray
    "Which is better, to learn the truth, or to enjoy the illusion of being right when you are not?"
    Quote Originally Posted by hangooknamja88 View Post
    My definition of Ki is our energy. it's rather hard to explain it in words. It's not some mystical type of energy like white people...


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  10. dingirfecho is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/16/2008 9:40am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Kali/Box/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swallow
    Which even if Yoo's vesion is true will be correct since Sipalki Ion Bi Ryu is claimed to be an style practiced by his family, without much spread to the rest of tyhe Korean Society.

    Swallow
    :D Yeap, thatīs true.
    By the by, this thread has entered into Argentinian forums:
    http://www.psicofxp.com/forums/artes...e-sipalki.html
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