Thread: What is a piquan?
2/13/2007 6:24pm, #81Originally Posted by Bugeisha
2/13/2007 6:33pm, #82Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
Sidwise is generally considered "heng".
But really, that is much closer to a Taiji's "play pipa" and I'd bet it's an even better match still for a De-ashi-harai
2/13/2007 6:48pm, #83
I guess the problem I'm having here is... what is the point of the 8 defining characteristics of the pi quan? What are the advantages? It really seems like the characteristics are almost meaningless nit picks. I'm also confused as to why you'd even bring up "pi quan" when talking about the jab, since one is an actual technique, while the other is just some transitional stance. The cop's training doesn't really concern me so much as the totally confusing way things in kung fu are named. I'm also having a hard time understanding how the videos posted that are specifically pi quan would translate to what's going on in the video, since the actual motions are so totally different.
2/13/2007 7:00pm, #84
Define a jab.
No really. Really define a jab so that none of the pimplifaced wannabees or the LARPers or other random CMA people who train in arts that don't have one can say that what they do is a jab just like you learned it.
Make a list of everything you can think of that has to be there to really call it a jab.
...since one is an actual technique, while the other is just some transitional stance....
2/13/2007 7:10pm, #85
To me, the real question is not 'is that piquan, or a potential application of one' but 'do xingyi schools train to apply it like that (against resisting opponents yada yada yada)?'
2/13/2007 7:18pm, #86
I know people who do but a "home run" like in that video just ain't gonna happen often. I picked the Cops video because that IS a typicaly taught application. Anyone who trains Xingyiquan can look at that and go, "Yeah dude! Awsome piquan..."
The problem is that if you are in a Xingyi school and you and your partner both do Xingyi, then your partner SHOULD have it drilled into him that the natural response to a piquan, especially a high one like that is "pao" and that will neutralize that kind of attack. Like you train a right cross to KO people but at your school I bet you land it and just flatten your sparring partners daily right? Jab-cross-go to sleep. Doesn't happen much. But that IS your goal with the thing. Same for a high piquan.
I think you said he looks like he was "just charging". Well "run him down" is Xingyi 101. Like a locomotive. Step forward and through your opponent. Sometimes the "fists" are just to shunt anything that might hurt you out of the way so you can steamroller him over.
I'll try and put my take on the 8 points I listed over on my other thread. They are not conclusive details or really official or anything. Like I said, Xingyi is not my main area. Those 8 were just what I could think of.
2/13/2007 7:30pm, #87Originally Posted by Omar
There are things I nitpick about it that make it a GOOD jab (keeping the arm inline with the shoulder, pop, pushing off on the rear foot), but then all of these things I can specifically point out how they improve the jab and make them more powerful/quick/efficient. Point out the purpose for each of the 8 defining characteristics and how they have their destinct advantages and then we've got something.
Originally Posted by Omar
2/13/2007 7:32pm, #88
Here's a handful of details I posted off the cuff on an earlier thread. They are not all-inclusive or definitive because, as I keep saying, I am really the wrong guy to be going off on Xingyi. I train:
And in that order. I also have about 8 years of Hung Gar behind me and those are me areas of expertese. So as you can see, of all the things I am qualified to provide info on, Xingyi comes in dead last but anyways.....
1. Feet - Lead foot toed in slightly. Rear foot angled out about 45 degrees.
2. Weght - Back weighted. Depending on the specific school anywhere from 60-40 to 100-0 but the weight is definately back.
3. Lead hand over the lead foot. That's from those "6 harmonies" I talked about on the "internal martial arts" thread. "Foot harmonizes with hand".
4. Lead elbow sunken. Otherwise it is not "harmonizing with the knee" again from the same post.
5. "lumbars pressed back and the chest hollowed out". Refer to the curve of the back in pics 1 and 2.
6. Rear hand near the lower abdomen.
7. Chin tucked in and the head "lifted".
8. Both hands, the toes of the front foot and the heel of the rear are all pretty much on the centerline.
Someone asked.......why? Here's the best I can do to answer these seeing as it's not my specialty. I'm also going to purposely avoid any parts of explanations that I already know will be regarded as "fruity" on Bullshido. . . but they are there even if you don't want to hear them.
1. Protects your nuts.
2. Almost all arts dealing with lot of kicks are like that. I'm sure you all can think of plenty of reasons to be back weighted in your "ready position".
3. Centerline domination. Not in a compulsize WC way but it's an element. Also keeping everything forcused ahead of you helps get the power out in the way it needs to to make the Xingyi techniques work.
4. Largely same as 3. It provides better stability, better centeline domination and keeps the movement of the lead elbow better connected with the lead knee.
5. Think "boxers hunch". Don't stick out your chest. This posture helps drop and therefore relax the shoulders which lets your arms extend out a bit farther. It also helps give you more power as you create a kind of a "bow" with your torso that stretches open and then snaps back as you hit.
6. Lead hand defends high and left. Rear hand defends low and right. (for a left lead). Many techniques tend to involve grabbing or pulling back and down on the other persons lead arm as your rear hand attacks. You pull them into the area around your abdomen, also into the attack of the other hand.
7. Don't stick out your chin. Don't hunch over either. Just stand tall and relaxed with your chin in.
8. There's that CMA centerline theory again.
2/13/2007 7:41pm, #89
You have a vague idea now which is more than before. Next time anyone mentions it you can think, "eh...something sorta like the way that Cop took down that dude."
That's really good enough since you aren't training it anyways.
A lead hand pi quan with gloves on would be pretty indistiguishable from a jab to most people. Weaving to the side and countering with the outside hand while the inside hand protects your head is a typical "paoquan". A "bengquan" can be thought of as a modified straight right or a gut shot with a verticle fist. Zuan's usually look a lot like uppercuts and only hengquan doesn't seem to have a rough equivalent in boxing.
2/13/2007 8:35pm, #90Originally Posted by Omar
Originally Posted by Omar
Originally Posted by Omar