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  1. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 6:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bugeisha
    The thing is, it's not really relevant which foot is forward for piquan- it can be either. Piquan isn't ONE technique, it's a way of moving where your energy arcs forward, up and down. The emphasis, in my limited understanding, is on the forward and down at the end of the motion. So the piquan frame can be a strike, or a throw, or whatever fits the situation. The picture of the old man is just showing the base of piquan; the platonic form in beginning xingyi practice, as Omar said. I don't think Omar's point with the cop video was to say that that cop trained xingyi and was performing a textbook piquan, but just to show an example of how the type of motion that piquan describes is applied in the real world, agaisnt resistance.

    Tomiki Aikido's shomenate is another example of the piquan type of motion, as far as I understand it.

    The five elements in xingyi are not techniques; they're patterns of motion which encompass subgroups of specific techniques. Piquan striked forward and down in an arc. A lot of individual techniques can fit that pattern. And the individual techniques will be drilled as well; the elements are just the base, the substructure.
    And just when I was ready to abandon the thread altogether.
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  2. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 6:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    I have been enlightened by Omar . It is the method of movement not the results or technique . I think you can actually piquan (on) the disco floor without breaking rules or changing it's definition .

    http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=51281
    It's not as good as the first Cops vid because he's no moving in or through a santishi BUT if you were going to force it through that Xingyi lense then I'd say it's more of a heng because the emphasis is not up, over and down but sidewise.

    Sidwise is generally considered "heng".

    But really, that is much closer to a Taiji's "play pipa" and I'd bet it's an even better match still for a De-ashi-harai
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  3. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 6:48pm

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    I guess the problem I'm having here is... what is the point of the 8 defining characteristics of the pi quan? What are the advantages? It really seems like the characteristics are almost meaningless nit picks. I'm also confused as to why you'd even bring up "pi quan" when talking about the jab, since one is an actual technique, while the other is just some transitional stance. The cop's training doesn't really concern me so much as the totally confusing way things in kung fu are named. I'm also having a hard time understanding how the videos posted that are specifically pi quan would translate to what's going on in the video, since the actual motions are so totally different.
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  4. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:00pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Define a jab.

    No really. Really define a jab so that none of the pimplifaced wannabees or the LARPers or other random CMA people who train in arts that don't have one can say that what they do is a jab just like you learned it.

    Make a list of everything you can think of that has to be there to really call it a jab.

    ...since one is an actual technique, while the other is just some transitional stance....
    No, the santishi is the traditional stance. The piquan is the technique. The application is flexible. On the "What is a Piquan" thread I started there's some videos.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  5. bob is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:10pm


     Style: MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    To me, the real question is not 'is that piquan, or a potential application of one' but 'do xingyi schools train to apply it like that (against resisting opponents yada yada yada)?'
  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:18pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know people who do but a "home run" like in that video just ain't gonna happen often. I picked the Cops video because that IS a typicaly taught application. Anyone who trains Xingyiquan can look at that and go, "Yeah dude! Awsome piquan..."

    The problem is that if you are in a Xingyi school and you and your partner both do Xingyi, then your partner SHOULD have it drilled into him that the natural response to a piquan, especially a high one like that is "pao" and that will neutralize that kind of attack. Like you train a right cross to KO people but at your school I bet you land it and just flatten your sparring partners daily right? Jab-cross-go to sleep. Doesn't happen much. But that IS your goal with the thing. Same for a high piquan.

    I think you said he looks like he was "just charging". Well "run him down" is Xingyi 101. Like a locomotive. Step forward and through your opponent. Sometimes the "fists" are just to shunt anything that might hurt you out of the way so you can steamroller him over.

    I'll try and put my take on the 8 points I listed over on my other thread. They are not conclusive details or really official or anything. Like I said, Xingyi is not my main area. Those 8 were just what I could think of.
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  7. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:30pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Define a jab.

    No really. Really define a jab so that none of the pimplifaced wannabees or the LARPers or other random CMA people who train in arts that don't have one can say that what they do is a jab just like you learned it.

    Make a list of everything you can think of that has to be there to really call it a jab.
    Meh, my point earlier wasn't really something I felt all that strongly about. My nitpicky-ness has to do with the fact that people throw really shitty jabs. It has nothing to do with what style owns the technique. A jab really is just a straight punch with the lead hand.

    There are things I nitpick about it that make it a GOOD jab (keeping the arm inline with the shoulder, pop, pushing off on the rear foot), but then all of these things I can specifically point out how they improve the jab and make them more powerful/quick/efficient. Point out the purpose for each of the 8 defining characteristics and how they have their destinct advantages and then we've got something.


    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    No, the santishi is the traditional stance. The piquan is the technique. The application is flexible. On the "What is a Piquan" thread I started there's some videos.
    Ok, I'm still pretty fuzzy on what a piquan is then.
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  8. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:32pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here's a handful of details I posted off the cuff on an earlier thread. They are not all-inclusive or definitive because, as I keep saying, I am really the wrong guy to be going off on Xingyi. I train:

    Baji
    Taiji
    Bagua
    Xingyi

    And in that order. I also have about 8 years of Hung Gar behind me and those are me areas of expertese. So as you can see, of all the things I am qualified to provide info on, Xingyi comes in dead last but anyways.....

    1. Feet - Lead foot toed in slightly. Rear foot angled out about 45 degrees.
    2. Weght - Back weighted. Depending on the specific school anywhere from 60-40 to 100-0 but the weight is definately back.
    3. Lead hand over the lead foot. That's from those "6 harmonies" I talked about on the "internal martial arts" thread. "Foot harmonizes with hand".
    4. Lead elbow sunken. Otherwise it is not "harmonizing with the knee" again from the same post.
    5. "lumbars pressed back and the chest hollowed out". Refer to the curve of the back in pics 1 and 2.
    6. Rear hand near the lower abdomen.
    7. Chin tucked in and the head "lifted".
    8. Both hands, the toes of the front foot and the heel of the rear are all pretty much on the centerline.

    Someone asked.......why? Here's the best I can do to answer these seeing as it's not my specialty. I'm also going to purposely avoid any parts of explanations that I already know will be regarded as "fruity" on Bullshido. . . but they are there even if you don't want to hear them.

    1. Protects your nuts.
    2. Almost all arts dealing with lot of kicks are like that. I'm sure you all can think of plenty of reasons to be back weighted in your "ready position".
    3. Centerline domination. Not in a compulsize WC way but it's an element. Also keeping everything forcused ahead of you helps get the power out in the way it needs to to make the Xingyi techniques work.
    4. Largely same as 3. It provides better stability, better centeline domination and keeps the movement of the lead elbow better connected with the lead knee.
    5. Think "boxers hunch". Don't stick out your chest. This posture helps drop and therefore relax the shoulders which lets your arms extend out a bit farther. It also helps give you more power as you create a kind of a "bow" with your torso that stretches open and then snaps back as you hit.
    6. Lead hand defends high and left. Rear hand defends low and right. (for a left lead). Many techniques tend to involve grabbing or pulling back and down on the other persons lead arm as your rear hand attacks. You pull them into the area around your abdomen, also into the attack of the other hand.
    7. Don't stick out your chin. Don't hunch over either. Just stand tall and relaxed with your chin in.
    8. There's that CMA centerline theory again.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 7:41pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Whatever.

    You have a vague idea now which is more than before. Next time anyone mentions it you can think, "eh...something sorta like the way that Cop took down that dude."

    That's really good enough since you aren't training it anyways.

    A lead hand pi quan with gloves on would be pretty indistiguishable from a jab to most people. Weaving to the side and countering with the outside hand while the inside hand protects your head is a typical "paoquan". A "bengquan" can be thought of as a modified straight right or a gut shot with a verticle fist. Zuan's usually look a lot like uppercuts and only hengquan doesn't seem to have a rough equivalent in boxing.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 8:35pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Whatever.

    You have a vague idea now which is more than before. Next time anyone mentions it you can think, "eh...something sorta like the way that Cop took down that dude."

    That's really good enough since you aren't training it anyways.
    I guess. I don't care that much about the piquan, it just strikes me as silly how what defines a pi quan is both really vague and really specific. Wether or not the cop was really doing kung fu doesn't matter much, it just seems like you've gotta dig way too deep to find what you're looking for to show kung fu actually being used somewhere. I guess that's the crux of the "MMA nutrider" issue, eh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    A lead hand pi quan with gloves on would be pretty indistiguishable from a jab to most people.
    Really? None of the pictures or videos I've seen so far really particularly resemble the jab, even without being all that nitpicky about details. I'd be interested in seeing a clip of the pi quan being used in sanda or whatever. I also find it kind of peculiar that you now say the pi quan so closely resembles a jab, when on the other thread you claim it'd be silly for Kat to waste time trying to learn it or you trying to learn to jab because the approach is so completely different. It sounds like the problem here is the over emphasis on subtleties of form over application.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    Weaving to the side and countering with the outside hand while the inside hand protects your head is a typical "paoquan". A "bengquan" can be thought of as a modified straight right or a gut shot with a verticle fist. Zuan's usually look a lot like uppercuts and only hengquan doesn't seem to have a rough equivalent in boxing.
    Ok, so xingyi has a lot of similarities to boxing... what's up with the big discrepancies that lead us kickboxers to be so unable to understand it, then? It's almost like kung fu is purposefully ambiguous to keep people out of the CMA club.
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