What is a piquan?

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 9:34am

My internet is kind of sketchy sometimes. I just now finnaly was able to watch the Patterson vid. Really good demonstration of the "one technique with many applications" idea.

**new2bjj** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 11:05am

Originally Posted by Shuma-Gorath

Doesn't claiming this kind of thing trivialize the art you're trying to attach it to? I mean, you're basically saying it's possible to "wing it" and pull off recognizable kung fu techniques without training.

This is true, I mean, some guys can just fight. Sorry, not everyone needs martial arts training to kick the crap out of people- including people with martial arts training. That video of the skater guy whipping up those 4 guys is a impressive as any MA demo. I'm not very physically gifted, so i have to seeing things and practice them, etc. some guys see a move once, they got it. There are guys out there that can pwn people, period.Also, that guy that got dropped looks like half the guys that step in the octagon- smirk, goatee, close cropped hair, etc. Everyone thinks there a bad ass, then, BLAM!

**bob** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 6:12pm

Originally Posted by dwhomp

As far as Xing Yi is concerned, we train to at the moment of the impact, to retain as perfect structure as possible, knowing that it in next to impossible to have perfect structure all the time.

This interests me. Does that mean that you don't train to follow through with the technique because then it becomes messy?

Omar, thanks for the vid and the explanation. I can certainly see how, at a good school, you could translate the concepts of the form to an effective technique.

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 6:24pm

For anyone still paying attention and haveing a hard time getting the idea of how this could be both specific and non-specific at the same time, watch this instructional vid from Mike Patterson, a full contact fighter and trainer of fighters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmcO-KJEvw#

It's just an instructional so don't get yet panties in a bunch over "aliveness" but notice that he is using essentially the same movement for ALL of those very different applications. He's using the Santi stance from pic 1, the old dude, and keeping all those details I mentioned as best as can be expected.

**dwhomp** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 9:12pm

Originally Posted by bornsceptic

This interests me. Does that mean that you don't train to follow through with the technique because then it becomes messy?

OH NO! Very much the opposite. Take an extreme example...

If you punch me in the face with one of those super extended punches, your arm is fully extended and you back leg is off the road and you are reaching with your back, does that hurt? AT ALL? There is ZERO power behind the punch.

What the "perfect structure" provides is that you are throwing your punch with your whole body. Now, many many arts say that very phrase and for fear of offending, there are very few arts/training that ACTUALLY use their whole body.

This also is based on an idea that we call "trading". You may be able to hit me and i will be able to hit you, but my structure and position are superior therefore, while you have hit me, mine will do more damage. We call that trading. You can see this very clearly with a groundfighting mounted position. The one on the bottom can hit you, but can he hit you as hard as you can hit him from the top? that is a "structure" position that allows for that.

Xing Yi trains to do the same thing, but from a standing position and striking.

While, yes, some can get messy simply because you have placed your opponent in such a terrible position that you can hurt them, there are checks and balances in practice to prevent injury while still training. But as most XY players will tell you, just about every session you leave with scrapes and bruises.

**Tomas Drgon** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 10:33pm

I'm leaving this thread because I came to understand that there's an irreconcilable split between our respective worldviews.

Tomas

**socratic** · Posted On: 2/14/2007 11:15pm

Originally Posted by Omar

Not only lifted but a real typical thing is like in the dragon "form", on the turnaround, you kick low with the lead leg and punch high with the lead arm at the same time. Lead leg needs to be able to lift up quickly not only to avoid a low kick but also to stomp kick the lead shin of an incoming puncher during the "zuan" part (the first movement) of a defensive pi.

Just another tactical reason for keeping the weight in back.

And, if one was terribly worried, a lifted leg in this position adds extra testicular-protection, if one felt they needed it.

**MartialArtN00b** · Posted On: 2/15/2007 1:03am

Originally Posted by Omar

Here's a handful of details I posted off the cuff on an earlier thread. They are not all-inclusive or definitive because, as I keep saying, I am really the wrong guy to be going off on Xingyi. I train:

Baji
Taiji
Bagua
Xingyi

And in that order. I also have about 8 years of Hung Gar behind me and those are me areas of expertese. So as you can see, of all the things I am qualified to provide info on, Xingyi comes in dead last but anyways.....

1. Feet - Lead foot toed in slightly. Rear foot angled out about 45 degrees.
2. Weght - Back weighted. Depending on the specific school anywhere from 60-40 to 100-0 but the weight is definately back.
3. Lead hand over the lead foot. That's from those "6 harmonies" I talked about on the "internal martial arts" thread. "Foot harmonizes with hand".
4. Lead elbow sunken. Otherwise it is not "harmonizing with the knee" again from the same post.
5. "lumbars pressed back and the chest hollowed out". Refer to the curve of the back in pics 1 and 2.
6. Rear hand near the lower abdomen.
7. Chin tucked in and the head "lifted".
8. Both hands, the toes of the front foot and the heel of the rear are all pretty much on the centerline.

Someone asked.......why? Here's the best I can do to answer these seeing as it's not my specialty. I'm also going to purposely avoid any parts of explanations that I already know will be regarded as "fruity" on Bullshido. . . but they are there even if you don't want to hear them.

For someone who talked about doing judo drills solo when it came to form in that other thread. I dont understand why you apply striking applications to your 8 points instead of grappling application.

I have limited hung gar experience (1 1/2 year), even more limited bjj experience, and some yoga, but the principle is the same from hung gar forms to takedowns in bjj to yoga postures when it comes to some mechanical details. So ill add to the points that are rather similar.

1. Rear foot angled out 45 because youre pushing off it. Its the same thing in yoga or hung gar. The rear foot is rooted so you can push from it and drive into your opponent.

2. The weight is back, because your rear foot is rooted and is from where your going to be pushing from.

5. The reason to root is to have proper base ( heck rooting == getting base, uprooting == losing base) , and to have proper base you need your back straight. Problem is, back straight doesnt mean arch your back. So you gotta press your abs towards your spine to actually straighten the back.

7. head lifted to straighten back, and get proper base.

They have no applications in itself except it improves the base and posture. But like rickson gracie said in an interview, jiujitsu is about learning weight distribution. So its useful to know.

And from those points, if i understand correctly, your piquan is basically a principle where you drive foward with the arms driving downward. So a basic technique like drive into your opponent, inside trip while pushing downward would be piquan based? piquan being basically a category where a variety of technique use that same motion. A shoot would qualify for the category?

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/15/2007 2:43am

Thanks for posting.

I dont understand why you apply striking applications to your 8 points instead of grappling application.

Mainly because I don't like talking out my ass. I've extensively in:

Hung Gar
Baji
Bagua
Taiji (comparitively but I also feel comforable there because my Baji training was HEAVILY Taiji influenced)
TKD

Also trained a little (6 months to a year) in:

Muay Thai
EPAK Kenpo
Kuk Sul
Hopkido
Aikido

Pure grappling training consists of:
Judo - 1 semester in college
Sambo/Submision wrestling - a few weeks during a trip home to see family.

So if I try to approach something from a grappling perspective, anything beyong basic standing throws and sweeps, I am talking out my ass. Got nothing to do with the reality of Xingyi. I know other Xingyi people who approach it from a much more grappling based perspective. That would be innapropriate for me. I agree completely with the points you made. I have even thought of some of them but simply felt it was not appropriate for me to be making those particular assertions.

And from those points, if i understand correctly, your piquan is basically a principle where you drive foward with the arms driving downward.

first up, then down. It's an arc. If you are going to try and include grabbing and "wrestling" (not grounwork) then without getting too anal, first pull in towards your gut as the hands twist palms up...a bit like a double lapel grab in gi wrestling. Yang the person towards you and then up and away. Follow the up and away with forwards and down. People tend to break it down into 4 phases.

- drilling (grab and twist)
- rising (lifting the person up out of their base)
- turning (the transition from driving up to chopping down)
- dropping - the actual "chopping" dowards at the end that give the thing its name.

So a basic technique like drive into your opponent, inside trip while pushing downward would be piquan based? piquan being basically a category where a variety of technique use that same motion.

Yes.

A shoot would qualify for the category?

Not sure. I guess if I had to sort it, yes but the idea of a piquan is supposed to include a drilling in and driving upward movement before the final downward drive. I don't know enough about how to shoot properly to make that assesment.

**dwhomp** · Posted On: 2/15/2007 2:52am

Originally Posted by MartialArtN00b

And from those points, if i understand correctly, your piquan is basically a principle where you drive foward with the arms driving downward. So a basic technique like drive into your opponent, inside trip while pushing downward would be piquan based? piquan being basically a category where a variety of technique use that same motion. A shoot would qualify for the category?

Um, not being someone who has much ground fighting experience outside of few of the Gracie seminars, the motion/energy/power of Pi/Metal/Splitting is more like chopping wood above your head.

And honestly, the differences between all the elements as far as structe-wise is not much at all. I think the shoot would qualify more as Wood/Crushing. This power of wood is directed forward and slightly down.

But to be candid, I am really guessing. At least in my own practice, we practice against the shoot, but not TO shoot. And to be honest, the shooting is done by guys like me so is it qualified and trained shooters? Naw, I am just the biggest guy there;)