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  1. Bang! is offline
    Bang!'s Avatar

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 11:11pm

    supporting memberBullshido Newbie
     Style: Wu Style TCC + BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We've had a fair bit of back and forth on the internal/external debate in another thread. What I think is relevant here is what I perceive as an IMA tendency to almost completely focus on structure and concept at the beginning, only really tightening up techniques later on. This is a bit of an over-generalization, but it will do for now.

    Now, does this particular type of approach work for people? I would wager that cultural differences come into play fairly heavily here. In other words, CMA is not exclusionary by nature, but it is Chinese by nature. Don't be too surprised if the translation is less than fluid for North Americans. ****, most people don't even like to read subtitles.
  2. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 11:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Really? None of the pictures or videos I've seen so far really particularly resemble the jab, even without being all that nitpicky about details
    I've got a clip that kind of drives the point home but not on my hard drive. I'll see if I can dig it up later. One of the guys over at Shenwu who I know put it up but I forget where. I'll look for it when I've got time.

    Ok, so xingyi has a lot of similarities to boxing... what's up with the big discrepancies that lead us kickboxers to be so unable to understand it, then? It's almost like kung fu is purposefully ambiguous to keep people out of the CMA club.
    My experience has been that it's not hard at all for most kickboxers to understand it. in fact, Jack Dempsey's ebook is one of the most oft cited works for explaining the mechanics of a lot of this stuff especially his so-called "drop step" and his discussion on how you should NEVER jab just as a set up but that a jab should be damaging. It's only on Bullshido that I have experienced this kind reaction. Pretty much everywhere else I post everyone seems to "get it" pretty quickly. There is a really strong tendency to dumb things down around here or demand that others too or you are ridiculed for having your head in the clouds or it's described as a "low percentage technique". *shrug*

    That's just one of the problems with having a basic premice that you can best understand things through challenging and debate as opposed to asking and discussing. Sometimes it just doesn't work that way.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  3. Torakaka is offline
    Torakaka's Avatar

    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 11:39pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    I've got a clip that kind of drives the point home but not on my hard drive. I'll see if I can dig it up later. One of the guys over at Shenwu who I know put it up but I forget where. I'll look for it when I've got time.
    Great, I'd be interested in seeing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Omar
    My experience has been that it's not hard at all for most kickboxers to understand it. in fact, Jack Dempsey's ebook is one of the most oft cited works for explaining the mechanics of a lot of this stuff especially his so-called "drop step" and his discussion on how you should NEVER jab just as a set up but that a jab should be damaging. It's only on Bullshido that I have experienced this kind reaction. Pretty much everywhere else I post everyone seems to "get it" pretty quickly. There is a really strong tendency to dumb things down around here or demand that others too or you are ridiculed for having your head in the clouds or it's described as a "low percentage technique". *shrug*

    That's just one of the problems with having a basic premice that you can best understand things through challenging and debate as opposed to asking and discussing. Sometimes it just doesn't work that way.

    I think the actual difference between here and other places is that other places people are more willing to just say "ok that makes sense" even when it doesn't necessarily register that well, just so as not to be overly confrontational. I'm not just being stubborn because I have some thing against CMA, it's just that the ideas being expressed don't make all that much sense to me in the way they're presented. I also think the back and forth we've been having makes for some interesting discussion which has brought to the forefront a lot of information and ideas. Bleep bleep blip bloop.
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  4. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 11:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes. I wasn't saying you specifically. I just meant in general.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  5. socratic is offline

    How do elenchus?

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 1:06am


     Style: gah, transition again

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good work. This is highly consistent with the (very little) Xingyi training I've had.

    Something also worthy of note with the placement of the lead leg (with weight on the back leg) is that in the event of an opponent attempting a shin-kick or sweep kick, one's lead leg can be lifted quickly out of harms way, and without endangering one's balance immensely. This placement also is good for a forwards leaping motion, where one can explode forwards off the rear leg, which could, for example, compliment a punch.

    And thirdly, now that I think about it, a low-level kick can be delivered easily with the front leg with minimum telegraphing, because one's weight does not shift.

    I'm VERY much a beginner, so I'd gladly accept the opinion of someone more informed than I, but these are a few practical observations from the stance.
  6. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 6:58am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqmcO-KJEvw

    An example of Pi Chuan Applications. This individual is Mike Patterson. For the "nuthugging" qualifications, he is rather well known as someone who trains in fighters for full contact, although the rule standards give credit for grounding, but does not include ground fighting per se, I believe most similiar to K-1 rules, although I dont follow the various MMA rulesets.

    This video should be seen as movement and possibilities, not a "he does this, I do this". While I dont have experience in anything but Xing Yi (unlike Omar who plays in a few), many of the same principles are taught throughout The Xing Yi, Baji, Bagua, Tai Chi world.

    Why Pi Chuan or similiar movements cannot just be broken down into "this is the application" is because in Xing Yi, fighting practices are highly based on principles with correct posture, structure, and the other person. A good example would be in the boxing realm, working attacks from a standing "clinch". Feeling where he is not to punch and attack.

    Xing Yi in general also focuses on breaking through the guard and structure of the other person, which may be seen in the above video as well.


    Hope this helps your thread Omar, if it doesnt? Please drive through...;)
  7. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 7:12am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I dont think it is important to say that this is pi chuan or the other references to other arts. Of course there are similiaries to other arts.

    I think the point of posting this video is to show in a real life situatuon what Pi Chaun movements are trying to accopmlish.

    Does the cop train Xing Yi? Who knows. Is it perfect? No. But "internal" arts that are taught with fighting in mind do not live in fantasyland where the person in front on you is going to behave the way you want them to. As far as Xing Yi is concerned, we train to at the moment of the impact, to retain as perfect structure as possible, knowing that it in next to impossible to have perfect structure all the time.

    So to argue, yes the cop does not have "perfect structure", he is leaning too far forward and is too extended. However, the structure was better than the person he was up against and was able to do what he needed to do. And maybe he is a judo player, or aikido or whatever, that doesnt matter.

    This is just an example to help those that are trying to see what it is and what it is trying to accoplish.
  8. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 7:37am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent.

    Mike Patterson is actually registered here. I forget which thread I was startled to see him comment on. I am also glad to see someone who is actually focused on Xingyi posting on "my" thread. Like I said, I just picked piquan to start with because I felt it was kind of more easily explainable than something like say...the 8 jin and 5 steps of taiji. Although it has an abstract side, it also can be demonstrated very conretely. There's lots of what is called "ming jin" or "apparent" aspects that can be discussed in simple technical terms just talking about posture and tactics and that way I hope to avoid alienating people with more abstract stuff.

    Xing Yi in general also focuses on breaking through the guard and structure of the other person, which may be seen in the above video as well.
    AFAIK, this is also a big part of why the Santi (and piquan) is shaped like it is. On a more "apparent" level, it's a kind of a "wedge" to ram into your opponent. You keep everything kind of focused on a point in front and then move in.

    Something also worthy of note with the placement of the lead leg (with weight on the back leg) is that in the event of an opponent attempting a shin-kick or sweep kick, one's lead leg can be lifted quickly out of harms way, and without endangering one's balance immensely.
    Not only lifted but a real typical thing is like in the dragon "form", on the turnaround, you kick low with the lead leg and punch high with the lead arm at the same time. Lead leg needs to be able to lift up quickly not only to avoid a low kick but also to stomp kick the lead shin of an incoming puncher during the "zuan" part (the first movement) of a defensive pi.

    Just another tactical reason for keeping the weight in back.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  9. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 7:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  10. dwhomp is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 7:55am


     Style: Xing-Yi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omar

    AFAIK, this is also a big part of why the Santi (and piquan) is shaped like it is. On a more "apparent" level, it's a kind of a "wedge" to ram into your opponent. You keep everything kind of focused on a point in front and then move in.


    .
    No question. When you look at Metal, Water, whatever, your body forms that triangle or wedge as you use, and such why you end up so "anal" of posture and structure (without getting into the arm, elbow, harmonies, essences, etc, right? )
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