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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 10:42am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Lastly, not everyone's goals in MA training are the same and it is quite common for people to be sold a form of practice intended to accomplish one goal as being appropriate for some other goal. In a recent interview (See INSIDE KUNG FU) CAI Longyun the well-known Chinese Boxing champion and author made it abundantly clear that training for WU SHU, as a form of physical culture, is not the same as training for combat or competion. While he did not deride the use of forms, he made it very clear that it is a mistake to train in forms and to believe that one has then prepared themselves for contact. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Welcome. That said take this part of your paragraph to noobietown. The reason this is being skipped is because, as Omar will tell you, this is very old news.

    Also, if you are a real researcher, IKF is not a good source of information. That same magazine had an article, with a champion, saying Wu Shu is good for combat. That, there are combat applications "hidden inside forms."
  2. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 10:45am

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     Style: Improv comedy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The problem with all Bunkai or hidden meaning in forms is that it's like software with out a computer to run on.

    Even if there are legitmate moves, with out the right drills, situational application and form of resistent training in them they're useless.

    But I am sure this is not ground breaking news
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 10:51am

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     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoJu - Joe
    The problem with all Bunkai or hidden meaning in forms is that it's like software with out a computer to run on.

    Even if there are legitmate moves, with out the right drills, situational application and form of resistent training in them they're useless.

    But I am sure this is not ground breaking news
    Well, this is where the disconnect comes from IMO. Dayoung is practicing Tai Chi because he is hurt. He is practicing an exercise low impact form. My mother also learned this type of Tai Chi.

    I have no problem with any "MA" that practices in this fashion. Of course, I'd argue, quit calling it Martial but, that is for a different thread.

    The disconnect comes from people who only learned the Health/performance aspect and then decided to teach the martial.

    Also, people that feel you can practice with out any form of resistance.
  4. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 11:01am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Welcome. That said take this part of your paragraph to noobietown. The reason this is being skipped is because, as Omar will tell you, this is very old news.

    Also, if you are a real researcher, IKF is not a good source of information. That same magazine had an article, with a champion, saying Wu Shu is good for combat. That, there are combat applications "hidden inside forms."
    Thanks, Fake.

    Actually I wasn't citing IKF as much as I was referencing CAI Longyun. He's a pretty widely recognized Boxing champion with more than his share of wins in competition. FWIW.

    As far as "secret meanings" in forms, I am afraid this is a function of "bad information" on the part of some cultures, and bad interpretation here in the West.

    As far back as prior to the Boxer Rebellion (1900) MA training was often a village affair focusing on local security. As such there was more than a little shammanism, cultism, and esoteric teachings mixed into fighting techniques as physical security and religious practices vied for the loyalties of the populace (See: Esherick). We have all heard stories of how Boxers were induced to believe that writing arcane terms on a paper, burning it and swallowing the ashes left them thinking that their "Golden Bell" training had made them invulnerable to Western bullets. So much for "secret" or "hidden" powers in their practice.

    A more recent problem arose when Miyagi Choyum introduced the concept of "bunkai" (K. "Bunseok"; lit: "analysis"). Miyagi had wanted to teach his students that the biomechanics of forms had purpose and often demonstrated an application of a movement. Western practitioners took this to mean that such an application was the definitive use of that movement. Problem arose when more esoteric movements such as conditioning motions, breathing motions, mudras and salutations were likewise taken for combat movements.

    Lastly, not everyone who practices a form is taught how to use that form correctly in their training. For instance, as I mentioned earlier, using a training form such as TAM TUI 12 as a combat form produces a well-conditioned athlete with a poor selection of combat options. OTOH, practicing a combat form such as CHINTO or MEI HUA provides combat options to a person who may or may not be prepared to use them. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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