Hidden meaning in forms

**Phrost** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 12:08pm

Please don't let this derail the thread, but I've been meaning to ask:

Where should the Ke?po section go? Here? JMA? Its own section?

**Cullion** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:11pm

There are lots of different types of Ke?po. Some claimed by their practitioners as Japanese/Okinawan in origin, some claimed as descended from chinese styles, and some avowedly american or hawaian in origin. I also know of styles of Ke?po founded in the UK from eclectic mixtures. Given all this, and that Ke?po is a japanese word, I don't think it's CMA.

Let the Ke?po practitioners decide.

**Guizzy** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:23pm

Wasn't Ke?po originally the Japanese pronounciation of Kung Fu?

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On the subject of hidden meaning; I think it's a pretty stupid idea. One grandmaster dies before having the time to teach that and they disappear? I think those that created the forms of the systems we're talking about would have preferred to have the ideas, concepts and meanings in the forms to be as obvious as possible; even exaggerated.

A story I heard from my sifu is about how previous generations of teachers/masters invented many forms as they went just to keep students training longer. The concepts behind those forms still expressed the art correctly, but the movements were not riddled full of ancient secrets about throwing chi fireballs and whatnot. A bit as if a good boxer shadowbox'ed, wrote down what he did and called it a form. The movements are still right and one probably could get better by practicing it (along with more lively methods, of course), but there's no hidden meaning beyond the techniques used and the obvious concepts.

**It is Fake** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:34pm

Originally Posted by Guizzy

A story I heard from my sifu is about how previous generations of teachers/masters invented many forms as they went just to keep students training longer. The concepts behind those forms still expressed the art correctly, but the movements were not riddled full of ancient secrets about throwing chi fireballs and whatnot. A bit as if a good boxer shadowbox'ed, wrote down what he did and called it a form. The movements are still right and one probably could get better by practicing it (along with more lively methods, of course), but there's no hidden meaning beyond the techniques used and the obvious concepts.

This is what I've gotten from a few instructors.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:49pm

Omar, your Shifu looks like he's a blast. Nothing quite like a funny guy who can hurt you.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:52pm

Originally Posted by Phrost

Please don't let this derail the thread, but I've been meaning to ask:

Where should the Ke?po section go? Here? JMA? Its own section?

Kenpo is a Japanse version of Shaolin. Kempo is a Hawaiian version of Kenpo. I suppose that, if anything, it's Japanese.

**MaartenSFS** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 6:21pm

Originally Posted by Omar

That may be the case for the popular version but there are plenty of forms around that tend to be held a bit closer to the vest (see the thread on secret moves) where this is most definately NOT the case. There are a few moves here and there in my form that are, AFAIK, just for developing certain kinds of feeling, awareness or balance etc. but the other 98% have direct combat applications. Most are flexible and in that sense there is a "principle" thing at work but you can be taught at least one or two very explicit things with almost every single move. Things like, "punch him in the gut" or "grab his arm at the elbow here and at the other shoulder here and twist suddently to the right as you hook his left leg".

Most of this stuff is not public for "us" here in Xi'an but here is one such application done EXACTLY as it is performed in the form:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=IrXz6mZJQes

Technically there are 3 applications but the second one is not "live". The first one comes completely out of the blue and I was 100% not cooperating. Then he kind of leads me into a better position as I cooperate and place my arm behind his head and and realize he has shown me how to enter differently and I then go for the sweep by using "repulse monkey", again, exactly as it shows up in one of the couple places it exists in our form. He counters it kind of nicely and dissolves the sweep. The 3rd is him going back again to the position before he threw me with the first one and showing me step by step how I could have/should have countered that set up except that the push, in real application, should be a strike.

3 techniques. One of them demoed completely "live". The second kind of a 6 on a scale of 1 to 10 in "liveness" and the last one a standard explanation step by step.

Referring back to Repulsive's post, try to imagine just about any standard Judo throw being practiced solo with no partner. Looks pretty silly yeah? How about some BJJ rolling around on the ground with no partner? That's why you need to work with another person in Taijiquan just like anything else but the point here is about the degree to which you could hope to identify a technique based on just observing the solo practice. You can pretty much only do it if either:

- someone shows you in real live 2 man work.

or

- you have previously learned that same technique or something similar already.

And even then, with either of those conditions, you still need to really kind of have an eye for it.

You can go the "principle" route but it's slow and tiresome and in the end you do both anyways but to say that there are no specific techniques, IMO, just says that your training is seriously lacking.

Though what you have shown me is interesting, you didn't completely understand my meaning. For example, if I throw a reverse punch in Gongbu it is related to, but not the same as a punch thrown in Sandajia. The difference between the two is that one is used for Jibengong and the other for hitting someone, because it is too difficult to move around in a low stance. Just like the back leg is always straight in the Taolu but when you really kick or punch it is a little bent and your normal sparring stance is a little "bouncy" so that you can move around more freely. Throwing a kick with your supporting leg straight is a good way to get your arse Shuai-ed. =P After getting into Sanda I am VERY skeptical of any fighting system with low stances. A lot of the things that I had previously learned (Like most standing Qinna techniques) were rendered completely useless when the sparring began (We go full contact with no equipment of any kind). In what kind of stance do you spar in?

- Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 10:47pm

You're right. I didn't completely understand your question. Based on what I have seen on this thread, neither did anyone else. I think "hidden meaning" is a poor choice of words. That's why we all went off on a riff about "secret" applications and such.

What you are describing is what I just call "common sense" also known as "training in a vacume". I got 2 related ideas on this.

1. Forms generally represent "platonic forms" of technical applications. We all know that platonic forms don't exists anywhere in this world. They are only there as ideas and yet we strive to get as close to them as we can. I am talking about just down to earth stuff like architecture and building cars and stuff. There are no truly perfect circles. Equilateral triangles don't exist in nature and neither to straight lines when you get down to it but we ignore that stuff when we draw up designs and then when we have to actually build something or drive somewhere we adjust to the conditions that actually exist.

The same exact throw that is showed in that clip is not REALLY going to be EXACTLY the same in the form or even when done on a different person.

2. A lot of other stuff is not hidden. lol. It's just not meant to be anything more than a calisthenic or in some cases movements are even specially designed to take into account the differences in solo training and how your movements are going to get shortened or otherwise changed when the rubber hits the road. You purposely stretch things out and open them up more when working solo in order to just help loosen up better and to better ingrain the movement patterns.

The difference between the two is that one is used for Jibengong and the other for hitting someone.... because it is too difficult to move around in a low stance. Just like the back

"jibengong" = calisthenics/exercises

leg is always straight in the Taolu but when you really kick or punch it is a little bent...

Straight leg kicking is just for stretching. It's an exercise. That shouldn't be a secret.

...and your normal sparring stance is a little "bouncy" so that you can move around more freely. ...

Depends who you ask. Some fighters are highly critical of any bounce at all. A lot of Traditional CMA is based in stillness not movement. This could be a holdover from weapons fighting or dueling but it's really a whole different subject.

**Mr. Mantis** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 11:08pm

Ke?po is just what the Chinese taught the Japanese WRONG so they could sit back and laugh at them while having a cup of tea.

That's the word on the street.

**Bugeisha** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 2:40am

Originally Posted by Guizzy

Wasn't Ke?po originally the Japanese pronounciation of Kung Fu?
.

No, it's the Japanes pronunciation of the Chinese characters for chuan fa. And most ke?po that I've seen is neither Japanese or Chinese in it's entirety. There are branches of Japanese arts called ke?po; Nippon Kempo and Shorinji Kempo for example. And all Chinese boxing can fall under the umbrella of chuan fa. But the Ke?po that we're most familiar with in the USA is a hybrid art that's not truly from either country, as far as I can tell. The ke?poists can elaborate more on the history, I'm sure.