Thread: Hidden meaning in forms
2/12/2007 1:08pm, #11
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Please don't let this derail the thread, but I've been meaning to ask:
Where should the Ke?po section go? Here? JMA? Its own section?
2/12/2007 2:11pm, #12
There are lots of different types of Ke?po. Some claimed by their practitioners as Japanese/Okinawan in origin, some claimed as descended from chinese styles, and some avowedly american or hawaian in origin. I also know of styles of Ke?po founded in the UK from eclectic mixtures. Given all this, and that Ke?po is a japanese word, I don't think it's CMA.
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2/12/2007 2:23pm, #13
Wasn't Ke?po originally the Japanese pronounciation of Kung Fu?
On the subject of hidden meaning; I think it's a pretty stupid idea. One grandmaster dies before having the time to teach that and they disappear? I think those that created the forms of the systems we're talking about would have preferred to have the ideas, concepts and meanings in the forms to be as obvious as possible; even exaggerated.
A story I heard from my sifu is about how previous generations of teachers/masters invented many forms as they went just to keep students training longer. The concepts behind those forms still expressed the art correctly, but the movements were not riddled full of ancient secrets about throwing chi fireballs and whatnot. A bit as if a good boxer shadowbox'ed, wrote down what he did and called it a form. The movements are still right and one probably could get better by practicing it (along with more lively methods, of course), but there's no hidden meaning beyond the techniques used and the obvious concepts.
2/12/2007 2:34pm, #14Originally Posted by Guizzy
2/12/2007 2:49pm, #15
Omar, your Shifu looks like he's a blast. Nothing quite like a funny guy who can hurt you.
2/12/2007 2:52pm, #16Originally Posted by Phrost
2/12/2007 7:21pm, #17
Originally Posted by Omar
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Last edited by MaartenSFS; 2/12/2007 7:24pm at .
2/12/2007 11:47pm, #18
You're right. I didn't completely understand your question. Based on what I have seen on this thread, neither did anyone else. I think "hidden meaning" is a poor choice of words. That's why we all went off on a riff about "secret" applications and such.
What you are describing is what I just call "common sense" also known as "training in a vacume". I got 2 related ideas on this.
1. Forms generally represent "platonic forms" of technical applications. We all know that platonic forms don't exists anywhere in this world. They are only there as ideas and yet we strive to get as close to them as we can. I am talking about just down to earth stuff like architecture and building cars and stuff. There are no truly perfect circles. Equilateral triangles don't exist in nature and neither to straight lines when you get down to it but we ignore that stuff when we draw up designs and then when we have to actually build something or drive somewhere we adjust to the conditions that actually exist.
The same exact throw that is showed in that clip is not REALLY going to be EXACTLY the same in the form or even when done on a different person.
2. A lot of other stuff is not hidden. lol. It's just not meant to be anything more than a calisthenic or in some cases movements are even specially designed to take into account the differences in solo training and how your movements are going to get shortened or otherwise changed when the rubber hits the road. You purposely stretch things out and open them up more when working solo in order to just help loosen up better and to better ingrain the movement patterns.
The difference between the two is that one is used for Jibengong and the other for hitting someone.... because it is too difficult to move around in a low stance. Just like the back
"jibengong" = calisthenics/exercises
leg is always straight in the Taolu but when you really kick or punch it is a little bent...
Straight leg kicking is just for stretching. It's an exercise. That shouldn't be a secret.
...and your normal sparring stance is a little "bouncy" so that you can move around more freely. ...
Depends who you ask. Some fighters are highly critical of any bounce at all. A lot of Traditional CMA is based in stillness not movement. This could be a holdover from weapons fighting or dueling but it's really a whole different subject.Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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2/13/2007 12:08am, #19
Ke?po is just what the Chinese taught the Japanese WRONG so they could sit back and laugh at them while having a cup of tea.
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2/13/2007 3:40am, #20
Originally Posted by Guizzy
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Last edited by Bugeisha; 2/13/2007 3:44am at .