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  1. #41
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Just a quick question.

    Are we making a distinction between those arts that are developed WITH a value system as compared to ones where a value system has been applied?
    I think there should be a distinction made. I see values as a marketing ploy in todays MA schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    For instance, a great many Korean arts espouse the O-GAE which has been around since the 7th century. I would feel pretty good about stating that any tradition in the Korean history would have some influence from this code.
    Could you expound on this a bit more? I am not familiar with the term, so I wouldnt know if it existed in my current style of TKD.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    OTOH there are a number of popular approaches here in the States where a MA or TKD school is heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and these would obviously have to have been added after the fact, yes? Thoughts?
    Some people see that anything they can use as a vehicle to spread the Christian Message (I m not getting into a Theological debate here) is worthwhile. Therefore they add the values into their art. They may change the tenets meanings to better reflect their beliefs.

    Nothing wrong with this as far as I am concerned.

    I believe it 1 Peter 4:10. I could be wrong on this.

  2. #42

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    Hope this helps:

    "...........................

    Five Tenets (“O-Gae”)
    “…..In the thirty-fifth year (613 ad.) an Assembly of the One Hundred Seats was held in Hwangnyong Monastery to expound the scriptures and havest the fruits of the blessing. The master headed the entire assembly. He used to spend days at Kach’ wi Monastery discoursing on the true path.
    Kwisan and Ch’uhang from Saryang district came to the master’s door and, lifting up their robes, respectfully said, “We are ignorant and without knowledge. Please give us a maxim which will serve to instruct us the rest of our lives”.
    The Won-gwang replied, “There are ten commandments in the bodhisattva ordination. But since you are subjects and sons I fear you cannot practice all of them. Now, here are five commandments for laymen:
    Serve your sovereign with loyalty;
    Attend your parents with filial piety;
    Treat your friends with sincerity;
    Do not retreat from a battlefield;
    Be discriminating in the taking of life.
    Exercise care in the performance of them.”
    Kwisan said, “We respect your wishes with regard to the first four. But what is the meaning of being discriminating about the taking of life?”
    The master answered, “not to kill during the months of Spring and Summer, nor during the 6 meatless feast days, is to choose the time. Not to kill domestic animals such as cows, horses, chickens, dogs and tiny creatures whose meat is less than a mouthful is to choose the creatures. Though you may have need you should not kill often. These are good rules for laymen.”
    Kwisan and his friend adhered to them without ever breaking them….”

    (from Haedong Kosung Chon)

    .................................................. ."

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  3. #43

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    Hope this helps:

    "...........................

    Five Tenets (“O-Gae”)
    “…..In the thirty-fifth year (613 ad.) an Assembly of the One Hundred Seats was held in Hwangnyong Monastery to expound the scriptures and havest the fruits of the blessing. The master headed the entire assembly. He used to spend days at Kach’ wi Monastery discoursing on the true path.
    Kwisan and Ch’uhang from Saryang district came to the master’s door and, lifting up their robes, respectfully said, “We are ignorant and without knowledge. Please give us a maxim which will serve to instruct us the rest of our lives”.
    The Won-gwang replied, “There are ten commandments in the bodhisattva ordination. But since you are subjects and sons I fear you cannot practice all of them. Now, here are five commandments for laymen:
    Serve your sovereign with loyalty;
    Attend your parents with filial piety;
    Treat your friends with sincerity;
    Do not retreat from a battlefield;
    Be discriminating in the taking of life.
    Exercise care in the performance of them.”
    Kwisan said, “We respect your wishes with regard to the first four. But what is the meaning of being discriminating about the taking of life?”
    The master answered, “not to kill during the months of Spring and Summer, nor during the 6 meatless feast days, is to choose the time. Not to kill domestic animals such as cows, horses, chickens, dogs and tiny creatures whose meat is less than a mouthful is to choose the creatures. Though you may have need you should not kill often. These are good rules for laymen.”
    Kwisan and his friend adhered to them without ever breaking them….”

    (from Haedong Kosung Chon)

    .................................................. ."

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  4. #44
    DerAuslander's Avatar
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    My issue is that lip service to "values" is paid, yet no one takes the time to look at the deeper Buddhist intent that Kukki Taegwondo was intended to be infused with.

  5. #45
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    My issue is that lip service to "values" is paid, yet no one takes the time to look at the deeper Buddhist intent that Kukki Taegwondo was intended to be infused with.
    Please elaborate. You being a monk gives you a head start on the slow kids in class.

  6. #46
    WARNING: BJJ may cause airway obstruction. Join us... or die
    EternalRage's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I figure people can do whatever they want with their fighting skills. Be athletes, be fighters, be hobbyists, even be students of philosophy and use them to better themselves. But the point is all of them should be doing it through fighting, and the improvement of fighting skills.

    If they are fulfilling their purpose of say, becoming better people or becoming enlightened or whatever without fighting, then they aren't achieving their purposes through martial arts, they're doing it with something else. Following the Flower Boy codes doesn't make you a martial artist - learning to fight does, and it's by learning to fight that one can learn to appreciate the Flower Boy codes, and thus become a better person. A better person that if need be, could throw down and **** some **** up.

  7. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by EternalRage
    I figure people can do whatever they want with their fighting skills. Be athletes, be fighters, be hobbyists, even be students of philosophy and use them to better themselves. But the point is all of them should be doing it through fighting, and the improvement of fighting skills.

    If they are fulfilling their purpose of say, becoming better people or becoming enlightened or whatever without fighting, then they aren't achieving their purposes through martial arts, they're doing it with something else. Following the Flower Boy codes doesn't make you a martial artist - learning to fight does, and it's by learning to fight that one can learn to appreciate the Flower Boy codes, and thus become a better person. A better person that if need be, could throw down and **** some **** up.

    I guess my question would then be does a person fight to accomplish some greater good, or does a person fight to "**** some **** up" and little else? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  8. #48
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
    FickleFingerOfFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I guess my question would then be does a person fight to accomplish some greater good, or does a person fight to "**** some **** up" and little else? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    One fights "to **** some **** up".

    One trains to fight to build confidence, a sense of self esteem (ability to protect themselves and loved ones) , and build a physically fit body and acute mind.

    Thats why its important that training be effective, if one feels confident in their ability, and has no ability, they are headed for a rude meeting with reality.

    Just my 2%
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I guess my question would then be does a person fight to accomplish some greater good, or does a person fight to "**** some **** up" and little else? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    One fights for real solely to "**** some **** up". The question is, WHY are you "fucking some **** up"? And is it appropriate? And to what extent are you "fucking **** up"?

    In this instance fighting =/= sparring.

    Let me quote the holy prophet derauslander "You don't have to be only a fighter, but you must be at least a fighter."

  10. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    One fights for real solely to "**** some **** up". The question is, WHY are you "fucking some **** up"? And is it appropriate? And to what extent are you "fucking **** up"?

    In this instance fighting =/= sparring.

    Let me quote the holy prophet derauslander "You don't have to be only a fighter, but you must be at least a fighter."
    Then does one make a distinction from those who fight simply for the sake of fighting?

    Historically, those times in Human history when people fought simply for the sake of fighting seem universally characterized as periods of devolution. The Period of the Warring States, both in Japan and in China, the tribal period prior to the Three Kingdoms in Korea, and the European Dark Ages have all been regarded as rather low points in Human history.
    OTOH the development of various systems that came OUT of those chaotic periods have stood as signs of considerable development such as Chivalry in Europe, BUSHIDO in Japan and the O-GAE in Korea, right?

    My sense is that the distinction is not about fighting but rather the willingness to forment change for the better SOME of which might require the need to fight. Afterall:

    " Nemo vir est qui mundum non reddac meliorem?"
    (“What man is a man who does not make the world better?”)

    Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

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