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  1. #31
    Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Not sure this is going to come out right, but tell me if this makes sense.

    In a way I look at someone investing themselves in MA values when they train in a MA the way I expect someone like Sugar Ray Leonard or Hearns to have showed some class when they did their Boxing thing. When someone trains without values I see something more akin to Mike Tyson--- lotsa mean but no real class. Does anyone else think along these lines? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Those are not values inherent in MA or KMA. Those are external values bundled into MA, generally for marketing purposes. Mike Tyson would be an ass with or without Boxing, just less famous. I would bet that Sugar Ray Leonard would still have the same values he learned from his family and environment with or without boxing. I see where you are trying to go with this, but another problem would be that those guys you mentioned are celebrities and its anyones guess how they act for cameras vs. at home, and what their fame has done to them.

  2. #32
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
    DAYoung's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    I don't need martial arts to tell me to be a good person. Leave the pseudo-philosophy at the door. And they aren't TKD values, they are Confucian values that were peddled to Westerners because they wanted the "Asian flavor".
    This might be the case for TKD - I don't know.

    But in the case of modern budo, the founders saw the martial arts as intrinsically philosophical. The ethical and metaphysical elements weren't a sales pitch for the export market. This doesn't mean they're somehow authentic (i.e. more real than sport fighting), but that the fabric of modern budo involves a great deal of philosophy, specifically Confucianism, Shinto and Buddhism.

    Not all the gendai budo masters were philosophical, but...
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  3. #33

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Abe Frohman
    Those are not values inherent in MA or KMA. Those are external values bundled into MA, generally for marketing purposes. Mike Tyson would be an ass with or without Boxing, just less famous. I would bet that Sugar Ray Leonard would still have the same values he learned from his family and environment with or without boxing. I see where you are trying to go with this, but another problem would be that those guys you mentioned are celebrities and its anyones guess how they act for cameras vs. at home, and what their fame has done to them.
    Thanks, Abe:

    I know that there are not a few people who have come to the US from Korea who have used Korean culture to manipulate and control their students behaviors while not following the tenets that they represent to others. I suppose one could make a similar arguement about the style of Democracy we in the US represent to the world as differentiated from what we authentically practice, yes?

    For myself, the values, principles and attributes that I follow in practicing Hapkido are part and pardcel of adopting the art as an actual lifestyle. As an example I can share that all Hapkido arts are governed by the Water Principle ("to accept Life on Life's terms" is the common way to express it). which is one of three. This is not an "add-on" but part and parcel of following Hapkido as a way of Life, just as are "to stop the fight" and "to re-establish the Hwa". My guess is not everyone does this and most are happy just to learn Hapkido as a kind of "bag of tricks" to use in a fight. Historically, though, certain values have been an integral part of Hapkido training for years and I have found that a great many practitioners, especially in Korea, train with this attitude in mind. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  4. #34

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    I would like to propose some new tenets for TKD

    1. Respect those who have earned it
    2. Earn Respect, don't demand it
    3. Cardio/Stamina is your friend
    4. Keep your hands up at all times
    5. Train Hard, train realistically, train often.

  5. #35
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
    FickleFingerOfFate's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin.74
    I would like to propose some new tenets for TKD

    1. Respect those who have earned it
    2. Earn Respect, don't demand it
    3. Cardio/Stamina is your friend
    4. Keep your hands up at all times
    5. Train Hard, train realistically, train often.

    I would +rep the **** out of you for that if I could.

    I'm stealing that by the way
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  6. #36

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    I was thinking more along the lines of:


    (1.) "Show no fear in the face of your enemy.

    (2.) Be brave and up-right that God may love thee.

    (3.) Speak the truth always even if it leads to your death.

    (4.) Protect the helpless and

    (5.) Do no wrong."

    (with apologies to Sir Ridley Scott). Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    I would +rep the **** out of you for that if I could.

    I'm stealing that by the way
    You're welcome to use it as you see fit. :smile:

  8. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    This might be the case for TKD - I don't know.

    But in the case of modern budo, the founders saw the martial arts as intrinsically philosophical. The ethical and metaphysical elements weren't a sales pitch for the export market. This doesn't mean they're somehow authentic (i.e. more real than sport fighting), but that the fabric of modern budo involves a great deal of philosophy, specifically Confucianism, Shinto and Buddhism.

    Not all the gendai budo masters were philosophical, but...
    Are you using the Hagakure version of budo?

    And yes, this is the case for TKD, as this is the TKD forum.

  9. #39

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    Just a quick question.

    Are we making a distinction between those arts that are developed WITH a value system as compared to ones where a value system has been applied?

    For instance, a great many Korean arts espouse the O-GAE which has been around since the 7th century. I would feel pretty good about stating that any tradition in the Korean history would have some influence from this code.

    OTOH there are a number of popular approaches here in the States where a MA or TKD school is heavily influenced by Christian beliefs and these would obviously have to have been added after the fact, yes? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  10. #40
    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    Are you using the Hagakure version of budo?
    No, not Samurai bushido. I see modern budo as a quite different cultural development altogether.
    And yes, this is the case for TKD, as this is the TKD forum.
    Then I will shut up and listen.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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