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  1. #21

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In a way I have come to agree with a lot of the sentiments I have been reading here. Where I train and where I teach such codes as the O-Gae ("Five Tenets") are taught. But I have to say in all candor that almost every person I have run across who teaches KMA does a much better job "talking the talk" than "walking the walk". For instance, in the modern context the 5th Tenet has become "Benevolence to all". Ever tell some of these school owners that you need out of your contract? Or how about #3-- "Loyalty to one's friends." Maybe I have a different idea of "friendship" but I can't say I would trust a lot of KMA people behind me with a knife--- especially if money is involved.

    IME the talk about values in MA is a lot like "sportsmanship" in professional sports. As much as its a nice ideal, and I promote it as much as I am able, I don't have a lot of confidence that much of it makes it to expression in daily life. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

  2. #22
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
    FickleFingerOfFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biomed190
    Weird at my Dojo we have no tenets. We have been told by master that we should use our training in a self defense capacity and thats it. None of the other things. As far as fleecing I've been charged the same 45 dollars for as long I can remember. Testing fees are 20 bucks and that includes the belt. No contract month to month. Sensai says if the school is good people will keep coming back on their own.

    That sounds like an excellent place. It's not the norm for TMA's especially TKD.

    The money grubbers are getting prolific, good schools are the exception.


    Bruce, well said. I like the analogy
    Last edited by FickleFingerOfFate; 2/16/2007 5:07am at .
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  3. #23
    HonkyTonkMan's Avatar
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    In a way I have come to agree with a lot of the sentiments I have been reading here. Where I train and where I teach such codes as the O-Gae ("Five Tenets") are taught. But I have to say in all candor that almost every person I have run across who teaches KMA does a much better job "talking the talk" than "walking the walk". For instance, in the modern context the 5th Tenet has become "Benevolence to all". Ever tell some of these school owners that you need out of your contract? Or how about #3-- "Loyalty to one's friends." Maybe I have a different idea of "friendship" but I can't say I would trust a lot of KMA people behind me with a knife--- especially if money is involved.

    IME the talk about values in MA is a lot like "sportsmanship" in professional sports. As much as its a nice ideal, and I promote it as much as I am able, I don't have a lot of confidence that much of it makes it to expression in daily life. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

    Exactly my sentiments. This karasek fag is living proof.

    There are KMA schools who are the exception. I will say that, but as the norm, they are all hypocrites, who just want your money.

    I undertsand that they are running a business, but they use the tenets as something they live by exclusively, until you are late on your payment. See how far the courtesy extends then.

  4. #24

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah we have the same tenets and a little hands up and recite the 5 oaths every class, OTOH I did the same as a (foreign) schoolkid in Texas (pledging allegiance to the flag).

    I don't see much harm in the tenets though, in fact I would consider it better than nationalistic flag worshipping.
    It's become an ingrained part of TMA, even if it may not be historically accurate to do so prior to training.

    Should we abolish the marriage oath because a significant number of people end up cheating or at least bailing out before the "death do us part"?

    Just because some end up being hypocrites, that should not prevent us being reminded of wrong and right. Hence, why not remind ourselves on a 2-3-times-a-week basis?

  5. #25
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azathoth
    Yeah we have the same tenets and a little hands up and recite the 5 oaths every class, OTOH I did the same as a (foreign) schoolkid in Texas (pledging allegiance to the flag).

    I don't see much harm in the tenets though, in fact I would consider it better than nationalistic flag worshipping.
    It's become an ingrained part of TMA, even if it may not be historically accurate to do so prior to training.

    Should we abolish the marriage oath because a significant number of people end up cheating or at least bailing out before the "death do us part"?

    Just because some end up being hypocrites, that should not prevent us being reminded of wrong and right. Hence, why not remind ourselves on a 2-3-times-a-week basis?
    We agree totally, I think the tenets are a wonderful thing and people should strive to live up to them. I just get pissed when someone infers that since they have them on the wall or they are a Martial artist they are automatically living up to them and are above suspicion
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  6. #26
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally, I think Martial Arts values are very important. Training at a great school with an awesome group for $35/month - now THAT'S a martial art value!

    Martial artists use the tenets to avoid being called on their bullshit. If you tell someone that you don't think their MA is up to snuff, they can either prove it by putting it on the line (potentially losing), or they can save face by bowing their head and sadly wondering when you'll reach the point of enlightment where you realize these challenges are useless. Of course, they're as quick to sling **** as the next guy - they just don't like it sticking on them.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"

  7. #27
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Personally, I think Martial Arts values are very important. Training at a great school with an awesome group for $35/month - now THAT'S a martial art value!

    Martial artists use the tenets to avoid being called on their bullshit. If you tell someone that you don't think their MA is up to snuff, they can either prove it by putting it on the line (potentially losing), or they can save face by bowing their head and sadly wondering when you'll reach the point of enlightment where you realize these challenges are useless. Of course, they're as quick to sling **** as the next guy - they just don't like it sticking on them.


    EEEEEWWWWW!
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  8. #28
    Abe Frohman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FickleFingerOfFate
    We agree totally, I think the tenets are a wonderful thing and people should strive to live up to them. I just get pissed when someone infers that since they have them on the wall or they are a Martial artist they are automatically living up to them and are above suspicion
    They may be great, but they have no business in martial arts or TKD in particular. The only tenet that I want to hear anything about is knocking my opponent down and out. I would think that if you are willing to pay money to have someone teach you some bullshit moral code then something is wrong.

    "I was a mean bastard who liked to kick puppies and make chunner jokes until sabumnim and TKD taught me to love my fellow man." Its aikidoishly Larptastic.

  9. #29
    Guess which finger is the fickle one... supporting member
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    The tenets as I understand them are not part of the technique set, they are part of the culture that accompany them to round out the art. You can have one without the other, and many people, yourself included, obviously do. I happen to think they have a place in the art (strictly my opinion) and in life in general. They show up in similar forms in many different places in life. Wheather anyone adopts them or not is a matter of personal choice.



    [Steps off soapbox]
    If you can't laugh at yourself,
    Others will be happy to do it for you. :evil6:

    The 2 most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.



  10. #30

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not sure this is going to come out right, but tell me if this makes sense.

    In a way I look at someone investing themselves in MA values when they train in a MA the way I expect someone like Sugar Ray Leonard or Hearns to have showed some class when they did their Boxing thing. When someone trains without values I see something more akin to Mike Tyson--- lotsa mean but no real class. Does anyone else think along these lines? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce

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